Author Topic: Lean Burn  (Read 18095 times)

Offline Sprocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 867
  • BHP: 29
Lean Burn
« on: January 25, 2009, 03:49:00 am »
I have been playing around with lean areas on the map around cruse. I so far have gone as far as lambda 1.1. I know the engine can take 1.2, but im not to sure about going that far for one reason. That is, I was on the understanding that lean conditions will start melting stuff, bad!, however, why is this so, when, looking at Cliff's calibration guide you can see in the charts that both combustion temps and EGTs drop off with leaner mixtures, so how will this melt stuff? In a way I can understand that an oxygen rich flame is hotter ( oxy acetylene cutting) but as long as the cooling system is up to it, it will remove the extra heat? At the same time I am confused with that theory against the charts in Cliffs calibration guids mentioned above. That leads me to the thinking that if the combustion temps and the EGTs are indeed lower, that if anything was to melt, it is as a result of one of two things, perhaps. First is that because the leaner mixtures require more ignition advance, meaning that the hot gasses ( but not as hot as a rich mixture) are in the combustion chamber longer, the combustion chamber picks up more heat than it would normaly? Secondly stuff melts with lean mixtures as a result of too much advance bringing on pre ignition?

Lots to think about.

I have read alot about lean burn and spoke to engine testing technicians at Shell Research. I understand the theory behind the lean burn. It is not the fact that you run the engine lean to save the fuel, but rather running lean causes a reduction in torque requiring more throttle input to increse the torque thereby reducing the pumping losses, which is what saves the fuel :D

Take that into consideration, I am in the process of fitting larger throttle bodies. This should give me more air for the same throttle opening. Another way of looking at it is that it will move the lean area on the map down, giving me a bit more room at the top for expanding out into the richer areas. At the moment the lean cruse area is in the middle of the map, and the smooth out to the rich area is getting tight. Obviously running lean needs very smooth blending into the richer areas so that it is not noticeble.

so what am I prattling on about :D well, what I need to be sure of is that I do not melt anything going up to lambda 1.2 at cruse part throttle ;D

Offline gunni

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1492
  • BHP: 37
Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2009, 06:39:41 pm »
Remember that your talking about cruise,
it´s never going to be similar as running lean under high load.

If anything stick to Cliffs calibration guide. It´s good stuff.

Ultimately you´d like to run 100kpa all the time and throttle for fuel enrichment to make it go faster , that
way you get the least pumping losses. Like a Diesel non turbo :)

Offline rob@vems.co.uk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3115
  • BHP: 49
    • VEMS Forum
Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2009, 07:37:25 pm »
You can always look at your EGTs to see what the combustion temperatures are like.

Offline dnb

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 837
  • BHP: 19
Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 06:14:58 am »
I've been round this loop twice now with the TVR (two different specs of engine)  Lean burn works pretty well and plotting the EGTs out, I found that it didn't get very hot at all - in fact rather the opposite - I was getting good combustion with EGTs of 250 to 350C.  Full load got to 700C+.

It's good for keeping the torque sane on the TVR, otherwise it would be impossible since it's now more than 350 ftlbs over most of the rev range.  (Which makes it kill diffs and tear diff mounts apart...  but that's another story.)

Offline Sprocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 867
  • BHP: 29
Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2009, 05:19:46 pm »
Cool

I'll have a play around and let you know what happens, but not until I fit the larger throttles and re calibrate the lower end of the map. I am aiming for lambda 1.2 at cruse ;D

Offline dnb

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 837
  • BHP: 19
Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2009, 04:52:40 am »
I never went as lean as 1.2.  I started to get misfires at 1.15 which I thought was due to charge robbing.  (age old wild cammed v8 problem...)

Offline Sprocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 867
  • BHP: 29
Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2009, 07:53:53 pm »
I never went as lean as 1.2.  I started to get misfires at 1.15 which I thought was due to charge robbing.  (age old wild cammed v8 problem...)

Yeh. I have seen logs for this engine where I have seen 1.2 lambda without missfire, we shall see how I get on. I could open up the plug gap and increase the dwell to help I would have thought?

Offline rob@vems.co.uk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3115
  • BHP: 49
    • VEMS Forum
Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2009, 08:42:03 pm »
If theres just not the charge in the cylinder theres nought you can do to light it.

Offline Sprocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 867
  • BHP: 29
Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2009, 01:22:20 am »
Dave Visard recons he's had 25:1 from one of his test engines at cruse conditions on a 5 port A series :D People told him it couldnt be done, but he did it. He managed 20:1 on occasions on his across the USA tour in the late 70s, so I dont think 17:1 is going to be a problem. Mind you the crap we have for fuel these days could be a problem.

Thats another thing, and one reason I went to 1.1.44 firmware with switching config. Theres an E85 pump 12 miles from me  ;D

Offline Ascona 400

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 22
  • BHP: 2
Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2009, 03:00:56 am »
You can run really lean on E85, I've tried 1.2 even on more load then cruise and it seams to work..
No misfire or so.
But it's very engine dependent, on my friends BMW M10 turbo we couldn't run leaner than 1.08 without getting misses.

E85 is nice but you need to go to the pump all the time..

Offline Sprocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 867
  • BHP: 29
Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2009, 04:11:13 am »

E85 is nice but you need to go to the pump all the time..

Yes, and the Mini only has a 32 litre tank :D and with a very thin spread of 85 pumps around the UK at the moment, I wouldnt get very far :D Infact I dont think I would actualy arrive at the next pump they are that far apart :D

I like the idea of a 60 year old design engine running sequential injection, wideband closed loop fueling, coil on plug ignition,lean burn E85 and a catalytic converter. The air the engine breathes will almost be dirtier than the exhaust gasses :D I wonder what VOSA would say to that :D

Offline rob@vems.co.uk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3115
  • BHP: 49
    • VEMS Forum
Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2009, 03:48:41 pm »
The air the engine breathes will almost be dirtier than the exhaust gasses :D I wonder what VOSA would say to that :D

Not necessarily the case with lean burn - the reason that the technology died a death (anyone remember Ford's "Clover leaf" piston crown design?) was because of the huge NOx emissions problems.
You'll have to get way past the lambda 1.1 peak:


The article that explains that diagram is here: http://franzh.home.texas.net/lean.html

Offline Sprocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 867
  • BHP: 29
Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 08:49:50 pm »
Looking at that graph, at 1.2 lambda the NOx is less than at stoich and with a cat, the NOx is reduced further

just as long as it doesnt missfire, i'll be happy :D

Offline PeepPaadam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
  • BHP: 8
Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 09:31:52 pm »
Does it cause any harm to head-gasket or exaust valves?

Offline cliffb75

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 167
  • BHP: 10
Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2009, 03:39:42 am »
Sounds like you are going to have a good time learning some interesting stuff, but I think you've got your wires crossed a little bit on a couple of things...

The definition of 'lean' is not necessarily lambda > 1, but simply a lambda that is more lean than the engine can tolerate at that particular condition. All the scare stories about 'I upped the boost and the engine ran lean and melted the piston' don't refer to the engine running at lambda 1.2,  probably still < lambda 1 - just too lean for the particular condition, and hence too hot at that point.

At low load conditions, running at lambdas>1 is not an issue and will not melt anything. (Of course, the definition of 'low' is relative to your engine and car)

As the load increases the problem with running on the lean side of lambda 1 is that you are in the less efficient region - i.e. you are not using all the air you pump into the engine, so you need to move across to the 'rich' side, and the (roughly) optimum lambda of 0.85 - but in moving from 1.2 to 0.85, you move through the hottest part of the lambda region, so you need to be careful to do this at a load that is low enough for the temperatures not to become an issue.

Alternatively, you may choose to always stay on the lean side of lambda 1. the problem here is that your operating window is much narrower, i.e. lambda 1 is too hot so you have to go leaner, but the engine starts to misfire around 1.25, 1.3, whereas on the rich side you can go all the way to about 0.6 before you start to misfire, giving you much more headroom.

Another issue with running leaner than 1, linked in with the last point, is that engine response tends to be reduced and fuelling control during transients needs to be much better controlled, again due to the reduced operating window.

Also, as Rob pointed out, the major reason for modern engines operating in the lambda 1 and richer area is the requirement to meet emissions legislation, regarding HC, CO and NOx. This is achieved by using a catalyst, which operates most effectively in a narrow regions around lambda 1, and also by minimising the feedgas concentration in the first place. Therefore at cruise we need to run around lambda 1 to keep the catalyst working and avoid saturation of any of the gasses, and running lean of lambda 1 and even moderate loads significantly increases NOx concentrations, and can quickly saturate the cats leading to breakthrough and a test failure. On the other hand On the other hand, allowing the lambda to wander slighly to the rich side of lambda 1 is less of a problem.

Last point - you are quite right in that its not the fact that you use less fuel when running leaner than lambda 1, as the torque drops off - its the fact that you open the throttle more to get back to the same torque point, and therefore reduce pumping losses. The improved pumping efficiency is slightly greater than the reduced thermal efficiency, so on balance you're up. However, as has been hinted at, the leaner mixture is less willing to burn. One way of helping counter act that may be advancing the ignition timing, but also increasing the compression ratio and improving the charge preparation and mixing will help. Unfortunately your idea of fitting bigger throttle bodies is directionally the wrong way here - larger diameter ports will mean slower moving air so worse charge preparation. Assuming you haven't opened out the inlet ports in the head it probably won't make much difference, so my advice is don't bother with the different throttle bodies for the sake of trying to run leaner than lambda 1.

As an interesting, related footnote, GDI (Gasoline Direct Injection) was re-discovered and developed (initially by Mitsubishi but then others) in order to allow the fuel to be injected as a 'stratified' cloud around the spark plug, so that the localised mixture is actually at a sensible lambda, but the overall cylinder lambda is very lean. At the extreme the throttle can remain completely open and the load controlled by injected fuel quantity - just like dirty oil burning truck engines! When running stratified some very impressive fuel economy improvements can be seen. But this technology suffers the basic problem of NOx emissions (caused by the fact that the cloud inevitably has a boundry region which encounters lean combustion), which requires additional NOx trap systems. Since these are not continuously reducing systems, they require periodic 'regeneration' which is achieved by - you guessed it - running rich for a while! therefore the real world fuel economy improvements of stratified gasoline engines are only of the order of a few percent, while the control strategies, calibration effort and extra hardware required to operate the system make the production cost significantly higher. Basically, its just not worth the effort.......