Audi MB quattro turbo conversion

[quattroboy]

Hello.
       I have a 1988 MB quattro 10v turbo running the factory CIS system which, due to a leakey injector, has stuffed my engine.
Some months ago I looked into an aftermarket EFI system to replace the CIS, and I had decided on the 034 system, its really suited to a 5 cylinder engine.
However, now that the cost of a rebuild has to be factored in, the budget will not cover the 034 system.
I then started looking at the Megasquirt, but it seems to be difficult to get going on a 5 cyl.
That brings me here!

I have read some good things about VEMS, and I was wondering if there are many people that have done this conversion already?
The VEMS website is a disaster, its so hard to find any information, or am I loking in the wrong place?

Is it going to be difficult to install a VEMS system? (I have never fitted an EFI system before).

The one thing I will say about Megasquirt is that the forum is fantastic,  and this would be very important for a DIY install from a support and information point of view.
Is this level of support available from VEMS?

There are a lot of people like me that would like to go down the DIY route, but a lot are waiting for a few others to go first.
Can anyone offer advise on this?
Many thanks

[jrussell]

Welcome.

While fitting any standalone EFI system is quite difficult it's of course possible. There is a lot to learn, but if you're inquisitive by nature you'll love knowing what you need to learn anyway.

Quite a few people have done CIS to VEMS conversions and also many people are running factory fuel injected 5 cyls on VEMS.

To be completely honest with you, since this is your first install it WILL be difficult. It will be difficult no matter what system you go with.

Where are you located? Usually if you buy from a local distributor you can get phone support.

If you're patient and willing to learn, go for it. It's a great experience. If you want turn-key though you're better off trying to find an installer.

[rob@vems.co.uk]

I have read some good things about VEMS, and I was wondering if there are many people that have done this conversion already?
The VEMS website is a disaster, its so hard to find any information, or am I loking in the wrong place?

Is it going to be difficult to install a VEMS system? (I have never fitted an EFI system before).

The one thing I will say about Megasquirt is that the forum is fantastic,  and this would be very important for a DIY install from a support and information point of view.
Is this level of support available from VEMS?

The people that tell you an aftermarket system is easy to fit are either a) Geniuses, b) Experienced, or c) people who've not actually fitted them!

If you don't like the wiki (and I'm guessing that you don't) then this forum is the place where the support will come from - take a look at the various sections in the forum here and you'll see the type of support given to people directly, they're all answered in a timely fashion.

If you have any questions ask away.

Cheers

Rob

[K17ERG]

I am also looking at using Vems on my Audi 2.2 5 cylinder turbo.
Looking to see if there are any others on here that are running VEMS on this engine.

Craig

[quattroboy]

Hi folks, thanks for your replies 
I accept that its is no easy task retrofitting a new fuel system of any nature, but I do understand the workings of the systems (to a point!), and I would certainly enjoy the project.
Rob, you are correct about the wiki.
Whats that all about? its all over the place.
I expected a forum like this I suppose.
Its hard to even figure out what to buy!

I have seen a lot of negitave remarks about the site, so its possible that others are being turned off by it too.
Im sure sales would improve if they could tidy the information into somthing more user friendly.

What I would like to do is first replace the fuel side of things and get that running using the factory ECU to control the ignition, and then at a later stage upgrade to coil per cylinder.
The fact that VEMS is sequential is a major plus over the MS, especially for a 5 cylinder to idle correctly (or so I have read).
I dont want to go crazy in the BHP dept. but a little more is always nice 
Does the VEMS require new sensors or can existing sensors be used?
The car has a digital display (its horrible but one of the car's quirks so I want to keep it) so will I have difficulties keeping it working?
I am a machinist by trade so I can make\modify pretty much anything that is required.
I am based in Ireland so I dont know if there are many using VEMS here but thats not an issue as long as I can get good support on the forum.
Thansk again...

[rob@vems.co.uk]

Well this forum and others like it (Swedish and Finnish) are here to plug the gap between nothing and the wiki - quite often queries here are answered with Wiki links.

Your incremental approach in getting the fuelling working first is a good idea and how I did my first installation.  Limiting the variables in the equation. 

All the Audi installs that I've come across talk of the engine code or model rather than the car - what engine code are you looking at using?

As for sorting out what to buy, we can work out what you need and I can sort the order out for you (and earn my referal fee )

Rob

[quattroboy]

Hi Rob, referal fee? more like a PITA fee for holding people like me by the hand as we start messing with things we should leave to the experts!
The engine is an MB, hence the MB in the post title.
It should lead others here if they type that in a search...
The engine is a 2226 cc 10 valve, KKK K26 oil and watercooled turbo, Hitachi ECU controlling boost and ignition, and Bosch CIS to balls up the fueling.
The engines are tough, forged pistons and steel crank from the factory.
The standard output is 200 bhp and 200 lb/ft torque, although the internals are well up for 350 WHP, but the cooling system and exhaust manifold cant really cope above 250 BHP, which would be my target-for now
The only reason I need to rebuild my engine is as a result of a leakey injector pouring petrol into one of the cylinders (its not a good lubricant) and causing the crank to score and the turbo to wear (it had less than 10k on it).
Hopefully the pistons are ok as they are no longer available (Audi are NOT helpful in keeping these machines on the road) and will have to be custom made. €€€
I am in the process of stripping the engine from the car so its going to be some time before I will need an EFI system.
I think it would be easier to get the engine running on the CIS first, at least to get it run in ok after the rebuild.
So my shopping list...
42lb injectors
Wide band o2
Boost control
After that:
Suggestions please...

[rob@vems.co.uk]

Experts all have to start somewhere.
I'm trying to find out what information we have on this engine, when I know I'll shout.

If you're in Ireland are you getting the new BBC show "Ashes to Ashes"
The 1981 Quattro plays a major part in it

Rob

[quattroboy]

OK Rob, I will leave it with you.
I havent got to see Ashes to Ashes yet, usually out playing footie on thursday nights and I keep forgetting to Sky plus it!
So much tv, so little time!

Is there such a thing as a user manual for VEMS such as the mega manual for MS?
Again, I have looked on the wiki but seem to just going around in circles

Regards,
Alan.

[rob@vems.co.uk]

There's my User Guide:

http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FPhatBob%2FUserGuide

Then I'm starting on doing a series of these:
http://www.vems.co.uk/VEMSSchematics/1JZLoomGuide.pdf

The next on the list is the 20V Toyota Corolla guide, no reason why the Audi can't be included but it requires someone with the right engine, time and a camera, if you're taking the engine out you might be able to help

Rob

[quattroboy]

Rob, thats a kick ass guide.
Do the MS guys mind the megatune being used for another system?

I will have the engine out of the car, I am going to completely strip it, and I intend on documenting the entire process for posting on a quattro forum.
What pictures will you need?
AFAIK there is no cam sensor in the 10v engine, but the dizzy is run off the cam and has a hall sensor if its any use...
Alan.

[rob@vems.co.uk]

I don't think that MS are particularly keen on us using MegaTune, and we've been working on a replacement, but MegaTune is really very good and works well enough for us so its quite hard to replace it.

Photos of all the sensors would be good, a photo of each side of the engine would also be handy so that I can point out the actual positions of the sensor.

I wonder if its possible to fit a suitable Audi sensor that would allow you to use a crank trigger - the level of accuracy on crank triggers is frighteningly good.

[quattroboy]

I dont think there is a crank trigger, but as I am a machinist I'm sure I can make it fit!
I had planed mounting a 60-2 ? wheel on the crank pulley and make a bracket to locate the sensor.
There is a TPS (Bosch) on the intake manifold from the factory, also an intercooler temp sensor.
These use a idle air control valve too, will it still be required to assist idle with full efi?
Alan.

[rob@vems.co.uk]

I dont think there is a crank trigger, but as I am a machinist I'm sure I can make it fit!
I had planed mounting a 60-2 ? wheel on the crank pulley and make a bracket to locate the sensor.
There is a TPS (Bosch) on the intake manifold from the factory, also an intercooler temp sensor.
These use a idle air control valve too, will it still be required to assist idle with full efi?
Alan.

I was wondering if a later model has a flywheel or crank trigger pattern.  The trouble with non-OEM trigger patterns is that you can get strange signal problems especially with the 60-2 pattern.  Did Audi do a 5 cylinder engine with that trigger type?
Idle control can be a real pain in the backside to get setup, if you have a vacuum controlled one it makes life a hell of a lot easier.

Rob

[quattroboy]

Rob, come to think of, I am fairly sure there is a dowel on the flywheel, and a sensor picks this up for starting...
Would this be what you are talking about?

Here is a list of the sensors (i think this is all of them)
RPM sender
TDC Sender
Hall Sender
Idle Switch
Full Load Switch
Knock Sensor
ECU Pressure Sensor
Coolant Sensor
Temperature Sensor
Above info from Phil Payne's excellent urquattro website, this is the page I got the data from:
http://www.isham-research.co.uk/quattro/wiring/Typ85/mac12pin.html
Alan.