N/A 4AGE 16V in AE86 - help needed, trying to "VEMS it"

[uzelac]

Hi all

I have bare VEMS board (without connectors), and have ordered some Ignition/injector drivers and wideband connector (i plan to buy wideband O2 sensor).
Got some Bosch Motronic M2.10.4 ECU and wiring loom from AR 155 1.8 TS 16V from which i will use ECU case, main connector, partially loom and other connectors. Plan is to use 60-2 crank wheel and some VW/Audi ignition coils and 395cc injectors which are too big but these are the goods i have already, and budget is thin as allways

Questions i need help on:
- how does above parts sounds ? Should i try with them or go for something else?
- what is a best way to pick up cam and crank triggers ?
- does anyone have dimensions/scheme of pickup point installations for these triggers ?
- what are the best grounding points for 4AGE ?

4AGE will stay N/A and with some 300' duration 9mm lift cams, forged HighComp pistons and custom made intake with ITB's I'm hoping for 170+ hp below 8000rpm.

Thanks!

p.s. project page:
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FUzelac

[rob@vems.co.uk]

You can have problems with the 60-2 trigger setup unless its well proven,  I'd stick to 36-1 if possible.
Wasted spark works well on these engines, Bosch motorsport coil works well (Check the Alfa Twinspark coils, when I searched on the Bosch part number it seems that these coils are O.E. on TS engines...)
I shouldnt worry about cam triggers to start off with as these would need to be fabricated - I do have a plan for a cam trigger for my Honda B16B engine but I want to test it out before I recommend it.

[uzelac]

60-2 trigger wheel is from Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 12V engine.

This one:



I plan to use gear alone. It suits me because its inner diameter can easily be mounted on 4AGE crank pulley, will look similar like that one from Alfa.

Can that be considered proven, it worked for years .
I have original HALL trigger for it, plan to use that as well.

Thanks for help, really appriciate it.

[Ignitec]

Gave up with pgmfi?

It's not Alfa 75 3.0 12v trigger wheel, I'm currently Vemsing one 6c... It might be 24v. You can use it with any VR sensor you can get, and with big cams and injectors on small engine, you should consider using Alpha-N and fully sequential setup (cam sensor also needed). Old used looms and packing VEMS in OEM ECU boxes smells like you will make a lot of problems yourself. It's always better, easier and cheaper to make new harness, use new automotive grade wire.

[rob@vems.co.uk]

Factory is generally pretty good - if you have a Hall sensor that definately works with that type of trigger, then use it, VR can do some horrible things in that two teeth gap that Hall will not.

[uzelac]

Gave up with pgmfi?

It's not Alfa 75 3.0 12v trigger wheel, I'm currently Vemsing one 6c... It might be 24v. You can use it with any VR sensor you can get, and with big cams and injectors on small engine, you should consider using Alpha-N and fully sequential setup (cam sensor also needed). Old used looms and packing VEMS in OEM ECU boxes smells like you will make a lot of problems yourself. It's always better, easier and cheaper to make new harness, use new automotive grade wire.

Ufff, could be. Maybe it is from 155 2.5 V6 12V than. I'm certain it's from V6 Alfa, which model obviusly i'm not .

About loom, will consider making new on, after all that's not that nor complicated nor expensive. About box, really like looks and build quality of Bosch Motronic. Also, the save that comes with using Bosch case and connector .

p.s. PGM-FI was great but when I added everything i need on PGM-FI in next version i came very near the price of VEMS. So.. time to move on

[Ignitec]

Factory is generally pretty good - if you have a Hall sensor that definately works with that type of trigger, then use it, VR can do some horrible things in that two teeth gap that Hall will not.

I think 155 2.5 uses VR, but need someone who is sure to confirm. Just use sensor that worked on car together with trigger wheel. If you like look and build quality of motronic box, it would be nice to find pins for that connector, and crimp in new wires (Wurth maybe). I've seen a few very bad installs in oem boxes, and IMHO it's generally good idea to use Econoseal connectors from webshop. In that case, there's no 20 - 25 years old parts in your newest einspritz

[uzelac]

I got pins and will be using them for connections.
Never mind the year, AE86 is almost 30 yrs old, so who cares about age .

What about cam trigger ? Full sequent demands this, and i still don't have an idea how to solve this.

p.s. Alfa Romeo 75 Q4 and 164 used 60-2 on 3.0 V6 versions.

[Ignitec]

There is small hal sensor in webshop that can be very easy used almost everywhere. Tried it, and it works.

[rob@vems.co.uk]

Bear in mind that the hall sensor in the webshop is really only any use for cam sync and low tooth count crank trigger.

[uzelac]

Do you think it is possible to put it behind cam pully in which i can put M6 bolt or something that size?
Could something like that trigger cam for VEMS ?

[rob@vems.co.uk]

I was thinking, rather than to make a hole in my cam pulley, I'd replace the washer behind the bolt on the inlet cam with something that looks like this:

I can then fit a hall sensor into the belt cover, it shouldn't take too long to do in a lathe.

[uzelac]

That sounds greay but i don't see it fit on 4AGE head.
This is how it looks like:





So low on space between pulleys and head. Maybe i can fit it on the outer side of pulley...

[uzelac]

What do you thing about distributor adaption?

In standard 4AGE 16v distributor there are two wheels. One has 24 tooth, and one has 4. Non missing, and there are 2 sensors in it.
Could i have both crank and trigger sensors so close in one place ?
Can i grind two oposing tooths from 24toothed wheel and one tooth from 4toothed wheel and use existing sensors.
That should act as 12-1 wheel for crank sensor  Is that accurate enough ? Does it sound like problem ?

All links taken from http://www.aeu86.org/viewtopic/megasquirt-i-v3_0-and-toyota-distributor-igniter/t/8834

This is stock dizzy:


And the guy grind off two tooths from 24 wheel and used it as crank sensor.



He didn't use 4wheel but it sounds to me it would work ars cam sensor with one tooth missin. At least in theory

I believe these sensors are VR type. I'm not that into electronics, but i see people use converters for them to make signal digital. 4AGE igniter should work, but it wouldn't be to big problem to change these sensors for HALL type.

[rob@vems.co.uk]

That sounds greay but i don't see it fit on 4AGE head.
This is how it looks like:

That thing I drew would sit where the washer under the bolt in the centre of the inlet wheel sits.
You could of course change one of those stainless allen key fasteners to a steel one and use that to trigger a hall sensor.