So we started the wiring today.
Made good progress until it came to actually putting the RS232 pins into the econoseal plug.
45 minutes later and with only two pins insterted into the econoseal plug, it felt as though the plug wasnt fitting the ECU correctly.
Rather than risk breaking the ECU pins we called it a day.
Bob, if you can hear me, gimme a buzz dude :D
We could do with your help getting these pins in before we damage something.
Wiring we can do, getting the pins into the plug we can't.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/JDMX_VEMS/130620091352.jpg)
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/JDMX_VEMS/130620091353.jpg)
What happened with all those lovely crimped wires I gave you?
Well the 8 earth wires from the R33 ecu needed to be soldered together, so we just used Maplin high quality black wire.
Solder one end to ECU plug, solder the other ends all together one at a time?
The RS232 needs to be long enough to reach a laptop placed on the roof of the car :D
We were saving the precrimped wires for sensors.
Crimped end into VEMS ECU econoseal plug, other end soldered to R33 plug.
We could have used two precrimped wires for the RS232 and extended them but it was for experience that we made the long RS232.
And to save precrimped wires for short adaptor plug functions.
Remember, the goal for stage 1 was to get all power and earths sorted and simply power vems up
so we can see megatune acknowledge that the ecu is powered, and not pop the 1amp which has yet to be fitted.
Then disconnect and actually start hooking up sensors wires.
This was your advice no?
The wires need to be soldered together, but its best to expose them and twist together.
The RS232 needs to be short, the extension cable is the thing that allows the laptop on the roof to be connected.
Theres a short length of shielded cable in the wire pack. Unshielded stuff will act as an antenna and draw loads of noise in :(
You're going the right way, but the crimps were done to make things easier, theres loads of them here if more are needed - I'm sure I put spares in the pack.
(http://www.vems.co.uk/VEMSLoom/RB25HarnessAdaptor.jpg)
Its all good, and heading in the right way.
Rob
Dur, I suck!
Monday you can go through what is for what with us.
Also have some wire label stickers so we cant forget :-D
I saw the short shielded wire but there were only 2 signal wires and the shield earth.
The RS232 diagram showed and earth from pin 5 so I didnt think it applied?
Again as I say, we can go through stuff toorrow if your free.
Cheers dude.
No you don't suck, I know what I mean, sometimes explaining it means I take short cuts.
The shield should go to the earth cluster:
(http://www.vems.co.uk/VEMSLoom/GroundMod.jpg)
As should the air temp sensor ground.
One of the outputs from this excercise was to compile a list of diagrams and info we found essential to doing the job
of making the adaptor loom.
I know there are existing diagrams for various tid bits of info but I was going to stick it in a doc for your perusal.
One such diagram would be to label each component in the package as I have obviously missed out that the RS232 was the short shielded bit. I thought thats what it might be for, but didnt think enough...
Did coil wires, tacho and water temp today.
I picked up the crappy solder tin so it took 95 times longer than it should ahve.
Called it a day after damo helped finish it off and check my stuff.
CAS wires need to be verified, then solder up flyback, injectors and whatever else is on that pin.
If we get that done well probably call on you to do a hands on instruction of the cas disc swap.
Dam is puicking up another stock CAS unit this week so we can switch quickly between VEMS and stocku ECUu.
Cool stuff, it takes ages to do the first one, the next time is much much quicker.
Yeah I'm very glad of the experience.
But doing it right the first time helps build a solid mental foundation for future work.
No doubts. Dont associate stress with the task.
All wires done except for ECCS IN, says its emant to go to 4pin/pin4?
WBO2 not hooked in so C18 is pretty bare.
Need to continuity check every single wire and confirm correct location before testing.
Heres the project car.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/JDMX_VEMS/280620091439.jpg)
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/JDMX_VEMS/280620091444.jpg)
Fuel support mods done. Coilpack on the bokos, tubby etc.
WBO2 bung and IAT bung need fitnig, will do last.
Adaptor loom pogress.
CAS pin 52 was not present no the factory loom!
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/JDMX_VEMS/280620091435.jpg)
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/JDMX_VEMS/280620091434.jpg)
Mine versus PhatBobs demo item
(http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/JDMX_VEMS/280620091432.jpg)
I nede to root back through the kit bag and look for an IAT plug and 4pin plug
Everything except AAC pin and ECCS In to 4pin/pin 4 are connected.
Continuity tested everything wed wired against diagram.
Everything was 100%
Plugged it in, finalised TPS calibration.
TOP TIP: Force throttle body to closed position/throttle stop by hand at the throttle body.
Calibrate low adc. Force throttle to WOT at the throttle body, calibrate high adc.
There was a bit of slack in the cable at either end.
With the Kamimoto throttle body, the TPs is fixed in its location with no room for adjustment.
Unfortunatly that puts the clsoed voltage at 0.005v and full throttle at 3.5v
I'm sure the sensor is sigmoid so the first 15% of throttle is hard for the ecu to discern.
the top 10% is better, but still a little laggy.
Can anyone recommend a bolt on replacement 5v linear TPS?
low adc is 11
high adc is 189, i think.
Water temp was .5 degrees below air temp (reading fine as far as we were concerned).
Air pressure was 1kpa away from Cambridge airport meterological readings.
Changed MAP calib offset from 6.5 to 6 to get it aligned.
Fuel pump cuts in fine.
Next up, IAT wiring, WBO2 wiring.
Put disc into spare CAS, which has yet to be purchased.
Good afternoons work.
Its alive!
Swung, caught sputtered and died.
Not having a vac pipe to the MAP sensor will do that!
Have cranking rpm, spark and fuel.
I need to rewire part of the adaptor harness to use the microphone cable for teh CAS triggers.
DOH!
WBO2 wiring and thats about it!
Map the biatch!
Its starting.
Its idling.
Problems that were overcome today.
Our setup:
Individual coil controlled via stock igniter.
4 worked, 2 didnt.
Thanks to Rob it was noticed that we were 2 drivers down due to a 4cyl hardware config.
Much splicing later, the coilpacks were paired at the 36pinEC, the ignition outputs configured for those 3 pins.
The spark pattern set in the ignition outputs. Were now running wasted spark via original igniter and voila.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/JDMX_VEMS/th_RB25DET_on_VEMS33_IDLING_2507200914.jpg) (http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/JDMX_VEMS/?action=view¤t=RB25DET_on_VEMS33_IDLING_2507200914.flv)
There was a strange intermittent rattle from the engine, that was because VVT was configured for 1200rpm, that was shifted up to 1500 and the noise went away.
The on screen timing when running didnt quite match the crank, so we adjusted for this,
partially at CAS, and more finely in the software.
The result was a crisp startup, smooth idle at ~1000rpm. Much better than what is in the video.
And the idle in the video was damn good!
You can see in the vid Rob lowering and plateauing the low rpm/throttle area in the VE tuning table.
Idle cant be lowered any mroe mechanically due to the massive TB not having any more adjustment :-(
Good earths, follow the manual, check, double check and triple check ALL wiring!
Bravo for Bobs help and documentation!
Idling tidy!
But wait, why for is it that the car is cutting out and the EVC keeps dying?
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/th_Alarm_relay_cutting_out_skyline_int.jpg) (http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/?action=view¤t=Alarm_relay_cutting_out_skyline_int.flv)
Stupid alarms! Carrying too much current for the flimsy relay!
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/th_Alarm_relay_fucked_27072009152.jpg) (http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/?action=view¤t=Alarm_relay_fucked_27072009152.flv)
This is the flimsy so and so.
For the record, tapping on the alarm casing caused the cutout to a lesser degree.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/270720091512.jpg)
Heres a more traditional schematic for this kind of 5 wire relay.
(http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/images/RelayWiringGuide.jpg)
Did the wires for the WBO2 today.
The power wire is dangling and, well, unpowered for now.
Bob, remember that wire4/4pin from the RB25 plug, is that meant to be fused and plugged intot WBO2 power feed?
If not, what is the 4 wire plug for, and should we have one??
I left the WBO2 wiring long enough that there should be slack with wbo2 threaded in,
plug pulled through bulkhead grommet and EC36 to WBO2 camble hooked up.
Could do with a quality asurance check from you before risking the WBO2.
Then we can datalog and get some infos :D
Use the ECCS relay in pin for the power, theres two at the far end of the plug. And use a 5A fuse.
I didn't answer you the other day because I have swine flu.
I thought it was just a complete lack of moral fibre? ::)
Get well soon mate :D
I initially thought that it was a lack of moral fibre - until last night when I wasn't sure if I'd see the morning...
I guess it is a lack of moral fibre - and one that Tamiflu will help resolve!
<GeordieAccent>
Day 4 in the Bob Flu household.
Bob is unwell...
</GeordieAccent>
Car stopped running, as suspected the iridium tips were covered in black from running too rich during cold starts.
Bores were airlined to clear out excess fuel.
Cleaned the plugs off and the car started running again.
Currently doesnt sound as if its running on all 6 so need to verify spark from all coil pairs.
Loom isnt secured, nor is ECU so something might have come loose.
Hi Guys,
this problem is preventing the car from being brought to Gunnar for final mapping :(
The electrical power on this R33 single turbo keeps cutting out.
It was aggrevated by the bodged alarm install as evidenced by this video.
You can see how the car cuts out and keeps running due to the bodged alarm.
This problem is STILL happening even though the alarm has been removed by a qualified autoelectrician.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/th_Alarm_relay_fucked_27072009152.jpg) (http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/?action=view¤t=Alarm_relay_fucked_27072009152.flv)
Watch the last 10-15 seconds of this clip to see the intermittent cutout.
You can see the EBC in the bottom left lose power and beep as it resets.
The car stumbles and keeps running.
This is the same symptom as the first video.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/th_Alarm_relay_cutting_out_skyline_int.jpg) (http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/?action=view¤t=Alarm_relay_cutting_out_skyline_int.flv)
However since the alarm has been removed it is STILL cutting out in the same fashion.
There are 3 relays clicking which raise concerns.
1) The blue relay by the battery is clicking intermittently, this does not affect the engine running. What is this battery side relay for?
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/200820091587.jpg)
2) Both relays by the ECU in the passenger footwell click at the same time the electrical power cuts out and the engine stumbles. One relay has a thick red wire going in, the other has lighter wires. What are these two relays for?
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/200820091589.jpg)
3)
What is the metal by the boot box that looks like some sort of resistor or relay?
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/200820091588.jpg)
Is the power to the VEMS being cut and it dying because of that? you can verify that in the log.
Or are some other relays being cut and the injectors are cutting out and it´s dying because of that?
Again seen in the log as rpm going down but still power to the vems.
That grey thing is probably the injector resistor pack.
Alarm and immobiliser removed. Lots of bad wiring apparently, things twisted and taped, not soldered >:(
Job undertaken by professional autoelectrician Im told, the removal that is.
Problem still present.
Cheers for tip Gunnar,
Ill do a datalog from startup and video the computer screen at the same time.
If VEMS cuts out and cuts back in then Id assume the datalog will cutout.
I suspect there is a live grounding out and causing IGN live to konk out as evidenced by the boost controller going blank.
In that case VEMS would be cutting out too, and I "think" the last day this happened I ahd the laptop pluged in and got the re/startup beep from Megatune.
Anyway Ill confirm soon with datalog and video.
Also running copper plugs to ease startup now :D
Responses from Skyline owners on Driftworks
Hexham_Scotty
The blue one in the boot is fuel pump, the large one above (silver box) not sure but I think it is some kind of aerial booster (should not affect running of car, have removed them before)
The two next to the ecu, one gives power to the ign system the other the injectors, thay are controled through the ecu,
if they are clicking as it dies they will be loosing power or earth before the ecu.
They dont normaly give problems.
The fuel pump one clicks in and out normaly so wouldnt worry about that one.
I would check all the earths are good as a starting point, especialy the large one on the drivers side chassis rail in the engine compatment (had loads of them come loose and cause all sorts of problems)
orange_beastie
Your fuel pump relay clicks so you dont have a high pressure on tickover and over fuel the car.
Personally id have the dash out and check every single wire and double check all the earths also take off the
terminals on the battery and clean them up and were the earth lead (black one) on battery connects to the
body undo the two nuts and clean that up.
And replace the black relay that you were hitting in the first vid.
Then check the wiring on the ecu plug just incase anything is loose there...
KINGCRAB
I had a similar problem to this with a mates car, went over all the wiring checked earths etc and sill never found it.
It would start up for about 3 secs then cut off-so hard wired the fuel pump and it worked but it over fueled on
tickover when the revs drop suddenly
So the fuel relay must control high/low voltage then yes, any idea the of the drop?
____
I wonder if VEMS is controlling the fuel pump, whats controlling the fuel pump cutting in and out?
Could it be nosie/flyback from the pump along the fuel pump relay wire causing VEMS to cutout?
Could wiring the pump to 12v constant help?
R33 Body loom schematic for diagnostics.
(http://paulr33.skylinesaustralia.com/diagrams/rb25det-engine-diagram.jpg)
Yes VEMS controls the fuel pump: Primes it on start-up, Holds it on while the trigger signal is received, holds on for a configurable amount of time after the trigger signal stops.
So the fuel pump should be on and stay on even if the RPM drops.
Next is the ECCS relay, that should be on when the VEMS is alive, it is worth putting a meter on the thing to ensure that the power is not being cut.
I'm back from flu and holiday so I can roll over one evening if needed.
Cheers Bob,
Video and datalog currently uploading....will post again when done.
Yes I wondered why the FP relay would click when VEMS obviously keeps it going.
The relay clicks even without the engine sputtering.
I guess its bad wiring from a botched alarm/immob install, unless some Nissan subsystem uses fuel pressure/rpm to switch the pump?
Load sense perhaps?
I very much doubt there is such a subsystem, and as such the clicking relay indicates bad body wiring.
The video looks like VEMS is staying up when the cutout happens, again suggesting the problem
is bad body wiring freaking out those relays. Perhaps 12v on a common earth?
Video timeline
0.13 Ignition on
0.30 Start Datalog with ignition live (0 seconds in datalog)
0.47 Start Car (17seconds into datalog)
1.25 Cutout happens (38seconds into datalog)
1.40 Cutout happens (43 seconds into datalog)
2.19 Cutout happens (1.22 into datalog)
You can use these chronological offsets to interpret the Datalog.
Startup is visible as a drop in voltage when cranking.
Videos still uploading.
Note: VemsLogger locked my CPU at 99% useage for the past 4 minutes....?
I got a CPU temp warning which is unusual and alerted me to its processor hogging.
What is happening at 107seconds into the log. The green ilne climbs but none of the numbers on the logger correspond?
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/th_Skyline_datalog_24082009157.jpg) (http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/?action=view¤t=Skyline_datalog_24082009157.flv)
http://www.skynet.ie/~eireae86/Skyline_DataLog_datalog200908241723.zip
Strange, the things that happen on the datalog with the dips in RPM show the ECU working properly and responding to the RPM change.
It might be an idea to identify which relay is dropping out, and then to bridge the switch (take the relay out and stick a bit of wire across the switch's plug holes.
Saw that, at least it shows its most liekly a body loom issue as suspected!
Time to start hard wiring things in place as was suggested in those Driftworks posts
It would be nice to know smoeone who knows the skyilne looms like I know Toyota looms.
The earth thing needs to be done as well, as a precautionary check.
Bypassed relays this mornig really quickly.
No cutout for the short time we idled it.
Normally cutout happens on cold start quite a bit.
Looks like the issue is with the coil side wiring for the relays.
Next plan of action is to get MOT and Mapping sorted!
Great , let´s get this thing done
Gunni, can you give me a ball park quote to map the car given its current state?
Wide band wired, plug just needs pulling through bulkhead.
Also can you send me the postcode we need to trailer the car to?
Or is there a rolling road near Cambridge we can bring it to that you could come down and use?
If thats more financially viable :D ?
Do you want rolling road tuning or what?
I can road tune it , and cheapest would be for me to come round and we just go out for a drive while I tune things.
Rob always mentions some airfield but I can´t remember the name of it.
Cheapest way would be probably for me to come round and make the car drivable and we then just drive to the dyno.
When that´s done we can drive back and I can drive back home. No reason to trailer the car if it´s not needed.
We will try and MOT the car and retax it so its road legal, and then take it from there.
Can you please give me a qutoe to get it rollling road mapped start to finish in case the customer wants that.
Dyno printout is always a nice thing to take home.
I work at motorworx.
so if you bring it there.
http://www.motorworx.net/pricing.aspx
80pounds for the first hour , 60pounds every hour after that.
How many hours the car will take I don´t know. But I´d assume 3-4hours to be sure.
GRRRRR! >:(
Ok so been debugging the wiring in the skyline.
With the key out and the ECU and adaptor loom unplugged, the injectors have 12v constant.
According to my understanding of nissan wiring and most other wiring in general, this should not be the case.
The injectors should only get live when ignition barrel is switched to IGN.
This is a proper wiring fault and is probably what has been spazzing out the switch side of the relays.
R33 wiring, clearer
http://paulr33.skylinesaustralia.com/diagrams/r33-rb25-wiring.jpg
R33 big schematic, but without details
http://paulr33.skylinesaustralia.com/diagrams/rb25det-engine-diagram.jpg
Looks like the alarm installer bodged it and joined all the lives together >:( hence why the switched sides of the coils are freaking
and all the accessories are freaking out.
This DEFFO needs fixing before it can be mapped, in case something burns out.
Side Note
pin 104 on the ECU is wired to EC36-pin6
Thats the fuel pump control relay, this is secondary to the fuel pump relay.
Im guessing this is the pumps idle voltage control and VEMS turns it off/keeps voltage high?
Gunni:
Cheers for the info dude.
When the shorting issue is done and MOT tax is paid up,
well probably get you to come down and street tune it so it can drive to the dyno.
Asked the woner today and hes happy with that.
Saves having to organise trailers and stuff.
Ok, so relay issue was bypassed, vems installed, wasted spark on the stock COP.
Idling nice and revving.
Oh wait, theres a misfire...a bad misfire.
We diagnostify this as weak spark given that the stock ignitor got to around 50celcius.
1 Vauxhaull Omega V6 coilpack later and were idling without the intermittent misfire.
But wait, she doesnt sound too good?
Some diagnostics later and we find 2 dead injectors.
VEMS is pulsing, confirmed 100% that the ECU works, just the injectors are stuck.
Lying idle for a years sucks!
So its play the waiting game while some 850cc bad ass arrives along with some uprated fuel rail.
Current engine bay...
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/271020091820.jpg)
After successfully diagnosing WEAK SAUCE we went for a meal, at the palce where winners feast!
Injectors ordered, should arrive next week.
Theyll be sent for flow testing to make sure all is in order and then we can continue the saga...
GT35 I think.
Injectors arrived too.
Manifold on the way.
Ext wastegate ready to be used.
Custom DP needs fabbing.
Think theres a fuel rail on the way too.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/JDMX_tubby_and_crash/030120102063-1024.jpg)
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/JDMX_tubby_and_crash/030120102064-1024.jpg)
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/JDMX_tubby_and_crash/030120102065-1024.jpg)
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/irishtwincam/JDMX_tubby_and_crash/030120102066-1024.jpg)
Owner is swapping the RB25 out for an RB26.
Reckons the RB26 with some forged pistons is easier/reliable to 500bhp?
Anyways, I wont bother updating until the new engine is running.