Ok, so i thought I'd share my project and hopefully get som help with my problems.
The car started out as a 200sx with a ca18det engine, I did some BPU to it but wanted something different. I got my hands on a ka24de engine from the US 240sx and decided to do a swap.
From the beginning I was thinking of turbokonverting it with something lika a garret T28 but as usually things got a little out of control.
New pistons and rods where bought to handle som more power and I bought a holset HX55.
Unfortunally there wasn't room enough to keep the distrobutor so I did a coil on plug solution and only use the distrobutor/CAS as CAS.
I replaced the sensor disc with a 24+1 disc, it happends to be the same as the sr20det engine uses.
I removed al of the engine harness/standard ECU and replaced it with VEMS and a V3 harness.
I'm now trying to start it up but I had/got some problems. First I couldn't get it to fire the ignitioncoils properly, that problem turned out to be my MSD DIS 4 unit that had broken down.
So for the moment I'm running the coils directly with VEMS and it looks fine when you have the sparkplugs out of the engine.
I have the engine idling now but only barely, it's so bad I can't even set the spark angle to 0 because it's jumping al over the place(between 0 and 40degrees). If I rev the engine the spark advances. What could be causing this? ???
I also would like to know if anyone have firmware 1.1.44alpha2 running with the 24+1 trigger?
Stick with 1.1.18 until you get the timing cleaned up.
How steady is the advance when cranking?
If I remember correctly it was pretty steady, but I will dubble check it.
What should the "Angular width of tooth" be set to? Right now it's set to 6.00 but I can't really understand why? I think it should be set to either 5 or 10 degrees after looking at your drawing of the triggerwheel?
I'm going to try to upload the .msq and a logfile somewhere.
Thanks for the fast reply :)
The spark is consistant when I only crank the engine, the spark angle moves maybe 2degrees at max, so that seem ok.
I also tried adjusting the fuel more and got it to run a little better but if I go any leaner now the engine stalls, spark angle variation was maybe down to 20degrees, but the spark angle was still advancing alot when revving the engine.
//Niclas
Make sure you havent got the Advance Idle control enabled, that advances and retards like crazy to try and hold the engine RPM on target. Also you need to start datalogging to analyse what's happening when the engine is running.
The advanced idle is of, was even worse when it was activated.
I do have a datalogg, just nowhere to put it. But I will fix that today.
I also tried pulling away 1 injector at a time while idling and you couldn't tell any difference at al, so its not tied to any specific cylinder.
Set the entire idle area on the map to a fixed 17degrees, if the advance is fixed nicely during cranking theres no reason why the VEMS shouldn't keep the advance static when the engine is running. If the spark advance gauge is jumping all over the place then the ecu is driving it like that.
Ok, I've finally got help to upload the msq and log, they can be found here:
http://sportscars.kicks-ass.org/mappning/Niclas/
I did notice that the spark angle gauge and the Pulse width gauge sometimes starts to jump when the igntion just is on, is this normal?
When the engine isnt running I've seen flickering on the PW and Spark dials too - nothing seems to happen so I think its more about the software. When the engine is idling with that advance what is the timing light showing on the crank trigger mark?
Well, shows between like 5 and 30 degrees i think, hard to say exactly. But it moves around about that much i think.
Okay, I think that the problem is mechanical, belt drive cams can have a lot of 'slop' in there and the problem is that the rising and falling revs make the sloppiness worse.
I'm guessing that the KA is belt cam? If not theres no undue wear on the distributor/CAS is there?
It might be worth checking the condition of the timing drive tensioner.
Worse comes to worse I'd suggest a two tooth Hall crank sensor, and use the single slot on the CAS disk for sync.
The ka24de is chain driven. Actually there's two chains, one on top that drives the cams and goes down to about the middle of the engine to a gearwheel. The bottom chain goes between the crankshaft and the gearwheel in in the middle. The CAS is connected to the gearwheel in the middle. I think the CAS is driven in the same way in the sr20det? not sure if that also have dual chains tho? Hope you understod my explanation, not so easy when you don't speak english as native language.
I'm also beginning to think that I have some mechanical troubble, have to tripple check that my cams are set right.
Also did a compressiontest and got about 110psi on al cylinders, not god at al. Don't know If it could take a while for the new pistonrings to seal?
Is there any evidence that someone with a 24+1 trigger is running with 1.1.44 firmware ? Or for that matter any firmware other than 1.1.18?
I'm hoping that Gunni will have some success with 1.1.44 on that Skyline he's doing at the moment.
We´ll have to see later this summer when I go back as I´m back from 17 long days.
But I´m quite pleased with the 1.1.44 , makes those 12v M20´s run smooth as silk, wasted or single coil.
And that RB25 idled smooth as hell as well. It was able to idle super smooth as low as 450rpm :P
Was that Skyline running 1.1.44 then?
Ok, so I've checked the cams now. They where fine in relation to each other but they where off by maybe 15degrees to the crank :o
I can't believe I missed that the last time i checked it, I wonder if I was stupid enough to only look at the cams that time.
However I have now redone it the right way and should be able to test it soon.
Hope it runs a lot better now, atleast I have one less problem ;D
Quote from: [email protected] on April 21, 2009, 02:18:34 PM
Was that Skyline running 1.1.44 then?
No 1.1.18.
The BMW´s where all running 1.1.44 and 60-2
Oh, ok. Seems like there's no one running the nissan 24+1 trigger with firmware 1.1.44 then :-\.
I think I'm forced to go with the 1.1.18 and get it up running before I'll try any newer firmware. I have enough trouble sources anyway.
Thanks for the info.
My 200sx (ca18det) is running 1.1.44 with 24+1 trigger and BOSCH wastespark coil.
Oh, nice Assa :) could i maybe get an .msq file from you so I can compare our settings?
Now with the cams in the right position the compression tester showed 160psi compared to 110 before, so that was good news ;D Factory manual says that it should be between 151-175psi. But I also have 9:1 instead of original 9.5:1 comp so I think 160 is great.
Got it to idle somewhat good today, alot less missfire than before but I still have a little more missfire than normal and still having problems with the spark angle not being very consistant. The engine rev went up and down between 900-1100rpm and when you look with the timing gun the spark angle increased/decreased as the rew went up and down. I will get the loggfile up in a little while.
Found an interesting thread!
http://195.159.109.134/vemsuk/forum/index.php/topic,323.0.html
Maybe this is part of my problem as im running triggertooth 6?
Will change it to 2 or 3 and test it tomorrow :-)
Latest logg file:
http://sportscars.kicks-ass.org/mappning/Niclas/datalog200904251533.xls
Try the original 1.1.18 trigger settings.
And fix your h[1] table.
I don´t understand the whole h[1] well enough to tell you exactly what it should be like.
But it´s possible that your figures are indeed wrong and you may be igniting well wrong.
Yeeeeees! The car is now idling very nice!
Changed "Trigger tooth" to 2 and set the "Angular width of tooth" to 30 instead of 6 and it idles so smooth now.
I'm a very happy fellow now! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thanks everyone!
PICTURES!!! ;D
Yes sir!
Here's a little spec list first:
Ka24de
*Holset HX55 Turbo (compressorwheel small dia 63mm and large dia 98mm)
*1000cc injectors topfeed low impedance
*Intercooler 24x12x4
*(PRS 8 Standalone engine management) Now I'm running VEMS instead with a V3 harness (Firmware 1.1.44)
*New triggerwheel for the CAS(24+1)
*HKS 50mm wastegate (Copy)
*Forged rods (Eagle)
*Forged pistons (Wiseco)
*ARP Head Bolts
*ACL Main and Rod bearings
*MAP sensor(4bar)
*New fuelrail
*JGS customs RB20 lightweight flywheel
*JWT clutchcover and disc(the disc was an exedy)
*Honda CBR 600RR F4i coils with new thicker cables
*4 inch airfilter
*4 inch downpipe to 3 inch exhaust system.
*MSD DIS 4+ (Broken at the moment :( )
*Sparkplugs (Bosch of some kind)
And some random build pics:
(http://200sx.kicks-ass.net/niclas_ab/img476c3d3951d4d.jpg)
(http://200sx.kicks-ass.net/niclas_ab/img47376e4f8e2e3.jpg)
(http://200sx.kicks-ass.net/niclas_ab/img46b72315b07ae.jpg)
(http://200sx.kicks-ass.net/niclas_ab/img47763ea412618.jpg)
(http://200sx.kicks-ass.net/niclas_ab/img4778f4c349601.jpg)
(http://200sx.kicks-ass.net/niclas_ab/img479e3125b010d.jpg)
(http://200sx.kicks-ass.net/niclas_ab/img479e313582690.jpg)
(http://200sx.kicks-ass.net/niclas_ab/img479e314b184b3.jpg)
(http://200sx.kicks-ass.net/niclas_ab/img47dd836fbdd72.jpg)
(http://200sx.kicks-ass.net/niclas_ab/img47bc9abc52b69.jpg)
(http://200sx.kicks-ass.net/niclas_ab/img4811e4cb9bbdf.jpg)
Enjoy ;D
Awesome ,
get it tuned and get back with some logs of the HX55 spooling :)
Well, maybe next week or the week after that.
First I have to put back a few things like the seats, front and hood :)
Then my plan was to first get it going without boost to get to know everything.
But I will make sure to update this thread with my results.
This is going to be a monster, if you get boost, before redline ;)
What kind of boost are you planning on running?
/Skassa
I don't think I'll be running so much boost this season, maybe 1bar. As this Is my first "bigger" build I need to take it slowly forward as I know problems will accour on the way.
I also needs to replace the gearbox and some other parts before I can turn the boost up high.
But I've seen that the people in US boost's this engines to 2.5-3bars ;D with even larger turbos, so there will be boost before redline but do realise the powerband will be somewhat ::)narrow
Now I've got the thing running with 0,6bars of boost ;D Pulls about the same as my old ca18det did with 1bar, and the turbo doesn't feel that big at al! Lots of powerband left when you shift to the next gear.
Will try to put up a log next week.
Hello,
Now I got some loggs for you. Please have a look and comment. Running a bit rich, I think the acc enrichment is a bit to much.
The turbo feels really nice even if it's big. I have 0,6bar at about 4000rpm and then slowly reach 0,75bar at 6200rpm where i let of, this was done in third gear. Hit 70% duty cycle with lambda 0.82.
Logg:
http://sportscars.kicks-ass.org/mappning/Niclas/datalog200905241734.xls
http://sportscars.kicks-ass.org/mappning/Niclas/datalog200905241739.xls
Maybe you need the .msq to:
http://sportscars.kicks-ass.org/mappning/Niclas/nissan200_1.msq
You dont run WOT at any time in the log, then its a bit aghhhhhh, to check for fullboost ;)
Yeah ;D I did notice that to after a while, as the TPS is callibrated my foot must have been really lazy ???
Anyway I don't think 91% or 100% will do so much difference?
hey this is nice!
so you got it working with 1.1.44? any hints on whats makes it go nuts sometimes? either sparks are jumping like crazy or pulsewiths go nuts for me when i try something other than 1.1.18 or 23 or was it 27??
no egt? would be very intersted in that... every car i touch seems to fire away over 1000c at light load
more pics and vids please ;D
Hello
The car is for the moment under reconstruction, as usually. Couldn't resist the temptation so I have removed the wastegate and took out the spring and measured it. If I did my math right the new spring should put me at about 1.3bar ;D
Will try to find someone with a videorecorder when i get it back together.
If you want you can download my msq file somewhere above in this thread and have a look at it, 1.1.44 have been working excellent so far for me :)
I have bought a EGT sensor but I haven't installed it yet, it's on my todo list. Will keep you updated as the project moves on.
Some news then :)
Have put everything back together and also hooked up the tachometer. Went for som testdriving but haven't been able to map for the higher boost yet. But al I can say is WOW, big differense!
At about 4000rpm the boost just explodes and i had to let of at 1 bar. According to the logg I have 0,8bar just before 3500rpm in 5th gear, I'm really impressed with this turbo.
Traction is beginning to be a bit of a problem :( I get wheelspin in third gear now, luckely I have found some new wider wheels but I have to convert to 5-bolt first.
MSQ: http://sportscars.kicks-ass.org/mappning/Niclas/200sx%20200906061921.msq
Logg: http://sportscars.kicks-ass.org/mappning/Niclas/datalog200906061853.xls
Bit of an update again.
Blew my headgasket some weeks ago, think it was just some days after I last wrote here.
But now it's been replaced by a cometic MLS that seems to be working good, put about 250-300km on it now without any problems.
I also did alot of other stuff while I couldn't drive the car.
Installed one watertemp gauge and one oiltemp gauge, and also a VEMS LCD display, but I need the to resistors to finnish that.
Also installed the cars original watertemp meter and oilpressure sensor.
I also ported the wastegate holes in the collector, so now I have a stable 1.2bar boost instead of the 1.5+bar I had before. But a boost controller valve also was installed so I will soon be boosting more again.
First I have to upgrade my fuelsystem tho, seems like my injectors are running at 82% duty cycle and more already at the 1.2bars.
So I have ordered some 1600cc injectors and a second fuelpump will be going in.
I also found a z32 gearbox for a nice price, so I will be uppgrading to that one later, probably not this year tho.
Hmm, i think you need a much bigger air filter! ;D
Ignition? what is that thing?
Maybe I will need a bigger airfilter at some point, it could be fun to see how far you can go with that one. Can't really fit any bigger airfilter under the hood in any easy way :-[.
I'm running a MSD Dis4, it's a 4-channel CDI ignition. As I have learned(please correkt me if I'm wrong) The CDI unit stores the spark energy and send It more as an impulse of about 450v to the ignitioncoils, instead of that you put 12v to the igntioncoil and build up the spark enery there. Nice when you want to adjust the ignition with a timing gun as you can clamp around the cables that goes to the ignitioncoil directly :D
Update time.
Did some pressure testing of my system and as expected I had some leaks. First one i found was on the intake manifold, bad gasket. Next was more of a surprise, my wastegate was leaking alot, turned out it had cracked! so I replaced, but then the boost went down to 1bar >:( the leak acted as a boostraiser.
Also hade a small leak on one weld on a pressure pipe. Everything fixed now.
Also done a 5-lug conversion in the rear, and put some wider rims on with 235/40 yokohama advan neova's.
Also put some z32 calipers and discs in the rear :)
After that I got the boost valve working after some minor problems, so now the boost is up to 1.4bar ;D
But the EGT temp is way to high, need to run some more timing!
It's quite fun to drive the car now ;D
Old brakes/wheels:
(http://200sx.kicks-ass.net/niclas_ab/img4a7e04a63a5a4.jpg)
New brakes wheels:
(http://200sx.kicks-ass.net/niclas_ab/img4a7e04e61add8.jpg)