Hi All,
I've read a lot on this forum already but haven't introduced myself yet.
The past years I spend my time building a Sport Quattro replica. The car is at the paintshop at the moment and will return quickly. Then I can start with the VEMS installation. Now I'm making wire diagrams to make the new engine loom. I'll also strip down the original audi wireloom with stuff that has been deleted like ABS.
Specs:
Audi Short wheel base Sport Quattro
Carbon/Kevlar body
Full Chromolobdeen rollcage
5-cilinder 2.2L, with own design drysump system
Garret GT42R
1000 HP Garret Chargecooler
And much much more is here: www.highoctane.nl
From now on I'll probably pop in regularly with some questions and info. Thanks,
Jeffer
www.highoctane.nl
(http://highoctane.nl/images/content_images/IMG_3132.jpg)
(http://highoctane.nl/images/content_images/totaal-plaatje.jpg)
(http://highoctane.nl/images/content_images/SQ_WIT.jpg)
Very nice, extremely good finish. I see that you have a link for dp engineering on your web page, are you going to be getting them to do the tuning or are you going to do that part.
You aren't my sun-burnt drinking buddy from KOE are you ???
Rob, I'm wasn't your drinking buddy. That was probably Cees at KOE. He's a friend.
Well, DP will help me with the tuning. I'm now messing about with another engine. That engine is a spare, and I can really experiment on that. If it fails, oh wel.......
However the actual engine that will be in the SQ, I want to map myself so that it drives. But Actual WOT mapping with that setup is kinda scary for a novice VEMS tuner. So I will do that together with Dave and Pieter.
It was Cees except I didn't know how to spell his name so I didn't try writing it, tell him I said hello.
I'll do that.
;)
Rob, Ill be using a 60-2 wheel from bosch. This has a hall sensor. Is there a manual how to dial it in and to put the correct parameters in?
Thanks!
(http://highoctane.nl/webalbum/webpics/IMG_3769.jpg)
(http://highoctane.nl/webalbum/webpics/IMG_3764.jpg)
There isn't a manual to speak of, just what's written in the forum and sprayed around the Wiki, I'll see who is about that I can ask.
The trigger setup to use is the same as the Volvo T5 engine.
Tricky part of triggering will be camsync signal at 5th cylinder. So 12453 turns to 53124. Rest is easy.
Good reliable solution. Thanks to VAG unification!
Thanks for the replys guys.
For now I can use the cam sync as used in the oem distributor. But I'm going to machine a trigger in my alloy cam wheel. Is there a preffered amount of degrees VEMS would like BTDC or ATDC? I'm still on the drawing board with that so anything is possible. And while we are at the subject, what would you guys suggest: The camwheel is alloy, and I want to fabricate a magnet or something else in the wheel. What would be the best solution?
Also why would the firing order shift because of the camsync. Can you explain?
CHeers!
I think you need to talk with Dave at DP about camsync, theres some tricky situations you can get into that I really don't claim to understand.
hello jeffer,
this 60-2 wheel is good i have the same and working excelent
you can take the oem S2 ABY or RS2 ADU cam hall (under the cam whell) and this 60-2 trigger hall
If I have choice where to put cam signal - then it is right before missing teeth: in compression stroke of first cyl.
So in sequence: cam signal -> missing teeth -> spark in 1st cyl -> 1st cyl TDC.
Thanks Gintsk.
@regler.
Good to hear that you are also using this! The camgear I use does not have the cam window trigger, and I use a 3B head, wich hasnt got the sensor mount. However, I can take the head off and weld the mounts on it. Then I can make it fit with OEM stuff.
Hi peeps,
Question:
I'm instaling the 60-2 wheel on the cranckshaft. The trigger wheel can be mounted in any direction. At the moment this is the situation:
Piston #1 is at TDC
The Hall sensor has tooth number 14 in the middle of the sensor at TDC (started counting at the first actual tooth).
Will this work out with a 5 cilinder? Any potential showstoppers wich I can't oversee at the moment? No I can still change it. Later on I need to take the gearbox off to reach the sensor....
Thanks,
Jeffry
14 tooth will be around 84deg. It should work without any problems!
Thanks a bunch! ;D
Hello Jeffer,
from which car is this 60 2 wheel and the hall sensor?
Have you a partnumber from VW&Audi?
greets from Germany
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3516017&page=2
On the bottom side.
Thank you!!!!
I'm back at VEMS again with the project car.
Things are moving along nicely. There is just one thing that bothers me!
I've installed the wiring harness in 2008 by Phatbob wiring schematics wich I printed out back then. These schematics where from latre 2006 back then.
The schematics/manual nowdays online differ of those of 2006. So the question is, shall i rewire my connections on the EC-36 pin to the new manual.... Or keep it like it was.
I'm kinda in between choices here. So perhaps some can put some sence in me.....
I don´t think the EC36 has changed at all?
There are some minor changes, best to consult the Pin outs:
(http://www.vems.co.uk/VEMSUserManual/ECConnectorsOut3.6.png)
Thanks a lot. All wiring is now up to date.
I've read on this board that a diode is needed on the oem bosch Audi RS2 ISV valve to make it work with VEMS. Can someone elaborate?
Thanks
Quote from: Jeffer on May 28, 2010, 05:29:37 AM
I've read on this board that a diode is needed on the oem bosch Audi RS2 ISV valve to make it work with VEMS. Can someone elaborate?
Thanks
http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34307
Great stuff Jamo!
Just wondering about the topic ISV on VEMS + Audi.
Is it mandatory for the PnP VEMS unit ADU/AAN/ABY to place the Diode with the ISV? Or does it work without?
Depends on how you define the term "work", it will activate, and it will do something, but it won't do it with anything like the precision that you'd want for OEM quality idle.
Pretty much all the people I speak to say that the stock IAC/ISV is crap. I recently noticed this fact on an otherwise fine S4. Another friend of mine is a mechanic and has an S4 of his own and has worked on plenty of Audis, I trust his opinion when he says they don't work.
Any other Audi fans have anything to say about this?
Following the S2forum thread will show that the guy had succes with placing the diode.
I was just wondering if you buy a pnp vems for audi, that you also have to do the diode mod.
Thanks
i've encountered a problem with one of the ignition drivers i think.
When i tested the coils i got no sprak on cilinder no 4 at pin 36. then i patched it to pin 12, still no spark. Then i went to 24 with succes. There was a spark. What could cause this? a failed driver?
the stock ISV on audis in the S2/RS2 era is a bulky electromechanical device. It seems to work well for many years with the stock ECU and i dont see any reason why it shouldnt be able to be controlled with vems. It took me quite a while to get used to controlling it with 1.1.27 version but i have managed it so far to have a nice idle, nice idle EGTs and use the ISV in combination with the ignition based timing.
I havent tried using any of the new firmwares but people who have are saying that it is much easier to control now.I have no experience in that. On 1.1.27 though, i realised that any difference in placement or orientation of the valve means that you will have to alter the settings again.
PID control also will need tampering.
When A/C kicks in, i get a minor drop in revs (as i had with motronic) but PID keeps it ok and does not stall.
i do use the diode for all this.
thats good to know, i'll get myself a diode and get on playing with iot. Another option is to use a different isv. I'm not limited to the oem audi one. Are there preffered isv's the VEMS community uses?
I have heard that some SAABs are equipped with a 2-pin ISV that works mechanically with the Audi intake plumbing, so it's a drop-in replacement. A local guy did that and he runs VEMS PnP that I've tuned. It was no different than the stock ISV, except it worked.. ;)
For other installations I prefer the 3-pin versions which have dual solenoids, I imagine they are faster and more efficient. Very common on BMW from the 80s and 90s.
I found out that i have 6 ignition drivers in my vems. Thats why pin 12 and 36 are not working :)
I'll start searching for a 3 pin isv valve from a beamer. Wil have to modify the connector but its probably worth it!
thnaks
Quote from: Jeffer on June 15, 2010, 12:37:02 PM
I found out that i have 6 ignition drivers in my vems. Thats why pin 12 and 36 are not working :)
I'll start searching for a 3 pin isv valve from a beamer. Wil have to modify the connector but its probably worth it!
thnaks
I've got perfect idle with stock Audi ISV on 1.1.74 and I dont use any ignition idle settings.
My supplier did a lot of work scoping out the Audi valve on 1.1.70 and provided great base settings for the valve
Who was the supplier?
and do you care to share the settings jamo? ;D
It seems that I cannot get my hed around some settings. Appreciate some help from you lot on this. I'm running FW 1.1.75
First thing is when performing a trigger log. I get a nice .csv overview from the primary trigger. This all seems to work well, it counts 58 teeth and the missing 2. However, it does not log the secondary trigger. It doesnt show up in the graph. Do I need to activate a checkbox somewhere to make it visible? I've enabled camsync.
Here is my log:
http://www.highoctane.nl/webalbum/SQ/v3.3_n000615-2010-07-10.13.59.00.csv (http://www.highoctane.nl/webalbum/SQ/v3.3_n000615-2010-07-10.13.59.00.csv)
This is the link to my last config:
http://www.highoctane.nl/webalbum/SQ/v3.3_n000615-2010.07.11-12.01.51.txt (http://www.highoctane.nl/webalbum/SQ/v3.3_n000615-2010.07.11-11.40.27.txt)
Then my other mystery is the ignition output table. The boxes are prefilled with 255. What do i need to assign here? is this degrees of firing order? This doenst add up because the number will be far greater then 255. I cannot find out what it is. Is this the [h2] table?
(http://www.highoctane.nl/webalbum/SQ/4.png)
(http://www.highoctane.nl/webalbum/SQ/2.png)
(http://www.highoctane.nl/webalbum/SQ/3.png)
Another issue is the injector table. Isn't there a dialog where i need to assign sequential injection order? Is that straight in the config?
Then my last for now. I've used pin EC36 pin18 for my IAT. In the outputs cchannel chart i cannot select pin 18. Phatbobs guide showed that pin 18 is open for IAT.
(http://www.highoctane.nl/webalbum/SQ/1.png)
Again thanks for the help! :)
What relates to ISV: Audi ones sometimes have mechanical problems. Jamming. Cleaning sometimes helps sometimes not.
BMW ones suffers from electrical problems - sometimes it generates hard RFI.
If Audi ISV is in good order there is no problems to get good idling on VEMS.
For those who opens ECU - I always use diode for ISV already soldered on board: every inj channel have two diodes in series. Just connect middle point of both diodes to 12V flyback pin makes exactly desired effect.
Gints
I've upgraded to the last firmware 1.1.78 and the last vemstune, and now i see both triggers in the log. so succes here.
(http://www.highoctane.nl/webalbum/SQ/scope_trigger2.png)
(http://www.highoctane.nl/webalbum/SQ/scope_trigger1.png)
Any clarification on that reference tooth table would be highly appreciated..... ???
Ign output table and reference tooth table reads from bottom.
From bottom 5cyl 60-2 with camsync could be 0-24-48-72-96
0 is the point where your primary trigger is configured.
Ign output table is related to this table. Also filled from bottom. Where in tooth table stands 0, first cylinder after the trigger should be chosen. Then rest in firing order (again from bottom).
Same for inj outputs - reads from bottom in firing order.
Ok, still not getting it... :)
Firing order of a 5cylinder is: 12453
so... the cylinders are on these tooth:
1 -> 0
2 -> 24
3 -> 48
4 -> 72
5 -> 96
So, we start with 0, and fill up from the bottom:
0
48
96
72
24
This results in some random firing on the plugs, and after a couple of firings, it keeps firing cylinder 1.
There are so many theories to fill up the table, i've also tried:
0
24
48
96
72
Which results in a running firing light (1,2,3,4,5)
Also:
0
96
72
48
24
Does not work
The strobe light however, always returns a light on TDC reference (flywheel mark)
ref tooth table should look like:
96
72
48
24
0
Ok, when i put these parameters in. I can visualy see the spark plugs firing. from what i can see by eye is that the ignition sequence is not correct. However, for now i cannot start the engine yet...
See config with the last setting
www.highoctane.nl/webalbum/SQ/v3_SQ_21-07.txt
Using this setup 60-2 + cam can give some kind of problems. This is under investigation.
The recommend firmware is 1.1.75
See http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FPeterJensenConsumercars
Peter
Yesterday evening it came alive! ;D Thanks to dave for help.
Now the fun really starts....
Ok, the car is operational at the moment. ;D
However i can not getting running ok. It sounds like its running on 4 cilinders. The engine runs, and i even driven it a small bit.
At the moment I'm running 1.1.80. I've strobed the timing on all 5 cilinders with succes. I've tested the coils and the plugs. All cilinders are firing when verifiyng it by removing the plugs. When idling and removing the injector connector, the idles changes or the engine stalls. Thats on al 5 cilinders. I cannot understand where it comes from.
I've read an interesting experience on the vems wiki from a member Alex Hoy. His problems sound exactly the same as mine. Altough I've been through all the dialogs to disable the settings he refers to, but no succes.
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?action=find&find=MembersPage%2FAlexHoy
Then I read this in the Firmware changelog on Vems Wiki:
Quote[1.1.80] - release candidate
* easily configurable injection end-angle (angular position when the injector output switches off) in function of RPM
o mostly matters at low load loadsites with aggressive cam engines. With a port-injected audi 20-VT (with cyl1 injector output in same position as cyl1 ignition output) smoothest idle and best throttle-reaction was achieved around 300 ATDC = 420 BTDC (was not very sensitive to precise adjustment, a window of at least +-30 degrees)
o secondary-trigger need to be configured as cam-sync for inj-angle to work properly. Without camsync (eg. with a missing tooth wheel) after startup, the chance for the sweet half is 50% at best.
I'd really like to sort it out in 1.1.80
If that doesnt work I will downgrade to 1.1.75
Who can help me out?
TA
yesterday i was playing with injector angle and find out that ref tooth table affects only ign place, not inj place. So try to change ref tooth table and ign outputs.
Are you saying that injectors and ignition is not in sync at the moment? What should I change in the ref tooth table and ignition outputs then? And how can I check it.
Thanks
Ok problem solved. Runns great now. Although the Lambda is now Bouncing all over the place.....mainly between 0,70 and 1,29 So in the other spectrum of the scale. Will continue fiddling with it. Thanks anyways
update again. Lambda is under control now. Ignition output table was incorrect. It started and ended with 0.
Idling very smooth now.
Just a small update to revive an old thread. The car is still running great on VEMS. Very smooth, and DP engineering did a great job mapping WOT and drivability.
The car made a healthy 894HP on the hub dyno earlier this year. At the moment I'm upgrading the engine left and right, and also modified some other stuff. Then it's off to the dyno again for another mapping session. The 4 digit number is within grasp :)
(http://highoctane.nl/images/stories/sq-dyno-sheet.jpg)
More info can be found on the FB page. Also lots of videos and such.
Cheers,
Jeffer
that's crazy numbers ;D
Wow! Nice numbers :)
Still on GT42? What hot side you use? What boost?
And what camshafts.
Gints
Thanks, yes still on a gt42r. The hotside is the stainless tial. IIRC after all these years its one fixed hotside size that tial provides.
The cams are custom ground cams. And the boost is 2.7 bar.
The engine is an engine I built 8 years ago. ;D And that engine did hold the 900 hp. However, I've now bought one oversize pistons. Its now at the machine shop for bore and hone. Thats because it did had a lot of blowby, so it wasnt that healthy anymore. ;)
Then there are some other upgrades to be done, and hopefully I can reach close to a 1000hp :)
https://www.facebook.com/HighOctaneRacing
or www.highoctane.nl
I've tuned 20VT on GT42R with diesel crankshaft. But still 7A cams. We got full boost earlier. But power figures I think is lower - somewhere in 800...850hp region. 2.9bar boost. 8000rpm. 402m in 9.6...9.8s.
Problem with GT42 - it do not flow well at this boost levels. No sense to rise boost more.
Tell some words about your CDI system. What you chose?
We are on 034coils...
Gints