Hello guys, I finally got around to signing up at the forums. I was initially hoping to get all my answers from the wiki, but you all know how well that goes :)
I have the following questions after diving the wiki / documentation for a week. Oh and I have v3.5 board and plan on running v1.1.18
- How do we go about wiring up the 2nd WBO2 sensor? I tried tracing EC18 pins for a 2nd LM324 but I just don't trust myself
- Where is a good place to get the sensor connector + wire for a Bosch 17014?
- What is the definitive guide on placing the missing tooth of a 60-2 wheel? I'm planning to use this in a Nissan VQ30DE with a 15 degree ATDC camsync (rising edge), and I have the option to rotate the 60-2 wheel however I want to. I can't seem to find a very good guide on dual wheel placement!
- Do people actually connect injector flyback (EC36-23) to 12V prior to the injector fuse? I've seen both!
This unassembled board is a major undertaking, I'm very tempted to write a supplement to Bob's guide after I'm done!
Second WBO2 will never be implemented. No way with current hardware.
Easiest way to get WBO2 connector is vems.hu webshop. Alternatively you can try any of your VAG dealers.
Usually on OE missing tooth is placed about 90-120deg BTDC. It means first comes missing then TDC.
camsync works as reset for firing order counter. It is easiest if camsync signal comes between trigger tooth of last and first cylinder of firing order. But other position only changes first cylinder in order cycle.
Don't use a 60-2 if you can help it - they never seem to work correctly.
For the VG you should use one of my 24+1 CAS disks, they work perfectly well with Hall/Hall trigger.
And there is some bareboard implementation info that I've written - it came before I did the User Guide
http://www.vems.co.uk/VEMS/
Sorry, Rob! what you means with 60-2 never seem to work correctly?
I have a tens of 60-2 on the road.
And everybody who I know and their Grandma´s run 60-2s :)
Sorry I should have been a little bot more specific :-[
Aftermarket ones are normally a problem, plus the Nissan disks work perfectly in a large number of different applications.
Usually the people making the triggers don't understand how the trigger sensors work and have big tooth gaps that cause strange electrical problems and noise in the missing tooth.
Quote from: GintsK on March 02, 2009, 01:47:32 AM
Second WBO2 will never be implemented. No way with current hardware.
Wha? Webshop claims 2 WBO2 heater drivers, and http://fireandfuel.ca/content/view/17/84/ claims 2 WBO2 controllers onboard. I've been under the impression that this is the case all along... Is it just a firmware issue?
Quote from: GintsK on March 02, 2009, 01:47:32 AM
Usually on OE missing tooth is placed about 90-120deg BTDC. It means first comes missing then TDC.
camsync works as reset for firing order counter. It is easiest if camsync signal comes between trigger tooth of last and first cylinder of firing order. But other position only changes first cylinder in order cycle.
This is more or less what I'm dealing with:
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv154/edwardkh/VQ30DE60-2Wheel.png)
So that would look about right? The 15 ATDC camsync actually coincides with the falling edge of a teeth on the trigger wheel, would that be a problem?
Quote from: [email protected] on March 02, 2009, 02:42:31 AM
Don't use a 60-2 if you can help it - they never seem to work correctly.
For the VG you should use one of my 24+1 CAS disks, they work perfectly well with Hall/Hall trigger.
And there is some bareboard implementation info that I've written - it came before I did the User Guide
http://www.vems.co.uk/VEMS/
Sorry Rob for getting your name wrong, it was an embarrassing moment for me :P
60-2 no good? I can machine up whatever wheel pattern so we are not really limited to that. Its just like gunni said, everyone uses a 60-2. Unfortunately it is not a VG, it is a VQ and has no distributor. What would you recommend as a good wheel pattern?
Maybe Rob think, that the big gap would be not as deep as normal gap.
(http://driftgarage.hu/shop/data/images/99/m.trigger_wheel.jpg)
Quote from: Sanjuro on March 02, 2009, 11:05:30 AM
Quote from: GintsK on March 02, 2009, 01:47:32 AM
Second WBO2 will never be implemented. No way with current hardware.
Wha? Webshop claims 2 WBO2 heater drivers, and http://fireandfuel.ca/content/view/17/84/ claims 2 WBO2 controllers onboard. I've been under the impression that this is the case all along... Is it just a firmware issue?
I believe what is meant by the hardware comment is that there is no way to calibrate the second WBO2 sensor, seperately from the first. However, I find that the consistancy of sensors these days is quite close, that I dont think it really matters. I calibrated a brand new sensor, then used a sensor that had been on the wifes Seat Arosa for 30k miles, then a sensor which had been abused on the Mini with the VEMS, and a new but used sensor. ALL were within 0.2% of each other with only one calibration constant!!
As for the firmware. I asked for a monitoring only second channel, this was being looked at at the time of my asking, but, because I changed direction with the engine configuration, I never pushed it any further.
Quote from: [email protected] on March 02, 2009, 04:20:09 AM
Sorry I should have been a little bot more specific :-[
Aftermarket ones are normally a problem, plus the Nissan disks work perfectly in a large number of different applications.
Usually the people making the triggers don't understand how the trigger sensors work and have big tooth gaps that cause strange electrical problems and noise in the missing tooth.
Rob does my plan look about right?
Quote from: Sprocket on March 02, 2009, 02:55:19 PM
I believe what is meant by the hardware comment is that there is no way to calibrate the second WBO2 sensor, seperately from the first. However, I find that the consistancy of sensors these days is quite close, that I dont think it really matters. I calibrated a brand new sensor, then used a sensor that had been on the wifes Seat Arosa for 30k miles, then a sensor which had been abused on the Mini with the VEMS, and a new but used sensor. ALL were within 0.2% of each other with only one calibration constant!!
As for the firmware. I asked for a monitoring only second channel, this was being looked at at the time of my asking, but, because I changed direction with the engine configuration, I never pushed it any further.
So it looks like if we can live with the small sensor to sensor inconsistencies we can get away with 2. Come to think of it I guess it won't really matter, since getting the reading on 6 cylinders is just as good as getting 2 signals of 3 cylinders each (I don't suppose we can tune per-bank fuel trim). Just for reference, are there any mention of 2nd channel WB02 development threads that you can point me to?
For triggers the best (if you have a cam sync) is to have one tooth 60deg BTDC for each cylinder pair - so you'd have 3 teeth 120 deg apart, and to use a Hall sensor.
Failing that a 36-1 pattern is the most effective DIY solution, theres so many out there that work. 60-2 doesn't really bring much to the party.
Quote from: z0tya on March 02, 2009, 01:44:11 PM
Maybe Rob think, that the big gap would be not as deep as normal gap.
(http://driftgarage.hu/shop/data/images/99/m.trigger_wheel.jpg)
That sort of gap cleans up the noise in the missing teeth. But if you're making your own trigger why mess around cutting double the number of teeth that you actually have to?
Agree: self made 60-2 can cause problems.
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=InputTrigger%2FMultitoothProblem
At same time code can calculate advance from last possible tooth. It is reason to use more teeth.
camsync and tooth at one time is no problem as long as it is not match your defined trigger tooth.
Second WBO2 FET is like nick name of FET. It can be used for switching an additional devices, but as I understand hardware is too week to handle two WBO2 - no free PWM channels or something like that... And no software of course.
Quote from: GintsK on March 02, 2009, 07:05:47 PM
Second WBO2 FET is like nick name of FET. It can be used for switching an additional devices, but as I understand hardware is too week to handle two WBO2 - no free PWM channels or something like that... And no software of course.
I have often said that there should be less of the "theoretical" features of the unit on the webshop page: second wideband, ibutton interface and so on, but they have a problem disassociating what the hardware offers and what the software enables.
Quote from: GintsK on March 02, 2009, 07:05:47 PM
Agree: self made 60-2 can cause problems.
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=InputTrigger%2FMultitoothProblem
At same time code can calculate advance from last possible tooth. It is reason to use more teeth.
camsync and tooth at one time is no problem as long as it is not match your defined trigger tooth.
Second WBO2 FET is like nick name of FET. It can be used for switching an additional devices, but as I understand hardware is too week to handle two WBO2 - no free PWM channels or something like that... And no software of course.
I see, and from what I can tell by the wiki v3.3 solved the signal issue with 60-2 wheels... I made a mod to my wheel just to see what would happen. Hopefully I can post some scope traces tomorrow so we have something definitive.
Quote from: [email protected] on March 02, 2009, 07:45:56 PM
Quote from: GintsK on March 02, 2009, 07:05:47 PM
Second WBO2 FET is like nick name of FET. It can be used for switching an additional devices, but as I understand hardware is too week to handle two WBO2 - no free PWM channels or something like that... And no software of course.
I have often said that there should be less of the "theoretical" features of the unit on the webshop page: second wideband, ibutton interface and so on, but they have a problem disassociating what the hardware offers and what the software enables.
Sigh that's too bad, I guess I'll leave the O2 bungs there just in case someday someone puts the software together.
You write for me this, or the 60-2? (Sorry, I am not really understand)
Quote from: [email protected] on March 02, 2009, 04:31:52 PM
Quote from: z0tya on March 02, 2009, 01:44:11 PM
Maybe Rob think, that the big gap would be not as deep as normal gap.
(http://driftgarage.hu/shop/data/images/99/m.trigger_wheel.jpg)
That sort of gap cleans up the noise in the missing teeth. But if you're making your own trigger why mess around cutting double the number of teeth that you actually have to?
Quote from: z0tya on March 03, 2009, 01:38:22 PM
You write for me this, or the 60-2? (Sorry, I am not really understand)
I wrote that about the 60-2
Quote from: Sanjuro on March 03, 2009, 12:50:54 PM
I see, and from what I can tell by the wiki v3.3 solved the signal issue with 60-2 wheels... I made a mod to my wheel just to see what would happen. Hopefully I can post some scope traces tomorrow so we have something definitive.
I salute you for trying, and it might work fine for you.
BTW you know that you don't
need cam sync to run COPs?
Quote from: [email protected] on March 03, 2009, 03:39:35 PM
Quote from: Sanjuro on March 03, 2009, 12:50:54 PM
I see, and from what I can tell by the wiki v3.3 solved the signal issue with 60-2 wheels... I made a mod to my wheel just to see what would happen. Hopefully I can post some scope traces tomorrow so we have something definitive.
I salute you for trying, and it might work fine for you.
BTW you know that you don't need cam sync to run COPs?
I hope so too :) Yeah I figured I can run wasted spark COP in the beginning, but since I have camsync I might as well use it...
Alright guys, I got the thing finished and scoped:
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv154/edwardkh/Vq30DE60-2WheelVer2.png)
Rob you are right, we do get this funny spike even though I raised the missing tooth gap. Hopefully like the wiki said v3.3+ hardware can handle it:
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv154/edwardkh/Photo_030309_001.jpg)
As it turns out, all I had to do was slope the gap... next time!
The thing you need to watch for is not the voltage spikes the LM1815 chip doesnt trigger on peaks it triggers on the point where the signal crosses zero. With 60-2 we have seen the 'zero' point rise above 0v, so what actually happens is that the point at which the crank trigger voltage falls below 0v changes. The result is that you can end up with the ignition timing being different on one side of the wheel to the other. One 60-2 someone posted was so bad that the trigger signal just stopped working over a certain RPM. Athough that was a bad, out of round, home made trigger wheel from what I could see.
If you take a look at the modern 60-2 wheels you'll see that the teeth and gaps are only a few millimeters high, and the missing "tooth" is actually a very long tooth rather than a very long gap, so the trigger material stays close to the VR sensor - this way if any noise gets into the sensor circuit it just adds to the peak voltage, rather than causing a negative voltage to go high (which can cause a false trigger if the noise spike is high enough to take the voltage over 0v).
Early Renault triggers seemed to take the voltage spike out but having a solid tooth as long as the missing tooth gap, with this the ECU sees just two very long gaps and runs happily.
Especialy I had problems with small diameter 60-2. Teeth are close each other except missing part which then cause a huge signal without zero crossing .
It is good idea to use Hall sensors for small ones.
e.g. BMW have two modifications of small 60-2. With hall missing gap is like on drawing above. But when VR sensor used - filled more than half of depth.
Quote from: Sanjuro on March 04, 2009, 12:12:40 PM
As it turns out, all I had to do was slope the gap... next time!
Or have a massive tooth rather than a gap.
Next time a 36-1 or have 3 teeth and use a cam sync ;)
Good work on publishing the results there.
how did the triggerwheel end up looking like, if you changed the design in the gab?
I alctully have a bit of cranking trigger errors on one of the older impreza´s i made ,that is even with the 36-1 wheel i made,but that is also rather small ,around 80mm in diameter,and the gab is just a missing tooth,so i was thinking if that would benefit froma raised gab also??
/skassa
Quote from: Denmark on March 04, 2009, 11:11:09 PM
how did the triggerwheel end up looking like, if you changed the design in the gab?
I alctully have a bit of cranking trigger errors on one of the older impreza´s i made ,that is even with the 36-1 wheel i made,but that is also rather small ,around 80mm in diameter,and the gab is just a missing tooth,so i was thinking if that would benefit froma raised gab also??
/skassa
The design that produced the scope trace is in reply #20, basically the missing tooth gap is 1/2 the height of all the other gaps.
Quote from: [email protected] on March 04, 2009, 10:42:31 PM
Quote from: Sanjuro on March 04, 2009, 12:12:40 PM
As it turns out, all I had to do was slope the gap... next time!
Or have a massive tooth rather than a gap.
Next time a 36-1 or have 3 teeth and use a cam sync ;)
Good work on publishing the results there.
Now I'm actually quite curious as to what the giant "tooth" would do. I updated the drawings to have the gap at 1/2 their previous depth and a missing gap instead of a missing teeth. Going to make this tomorrow and scope it.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv154/edwardkh/Vq30DE60-2WheelVer3.png)
I guess I should note that the last scope trace was made @~147rpm. The lathe would only go to ~3000rpm, otherwise it would be interesting to see what happens at high rpms. Regardless, I will re-scope with the max rpm and compare it to the new trigger wheel that I'm going to make.
Giant tooth will not work. I have experience. missing gap 1/3...1/2 deep from normal gives best result.
Quote from: GintsK on March 05, 2009, 03:27:08 PM
Giant tooth will not work. I have experience. missing gap 1/3...1/2 deep from normal gives best result.
Cool, good thing I checked the forums before hitting the shop. Updated my drawing:
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv154/edwardkh/Vq30DE60-2WheelVer4.png)