have currently got a Primera GT with a SR20VE, not many big mods on it yet, as the engine was only swapped about 12mths ago...have so far been spending time sorting out minor issues and makeing sure it runs fine as it is before going on the modding trail...
my goal has always been to stick some ITBs on the Primera which seemed a distant plan with the cost involved in the actual itbs let alone a standalone ecu..
but have recently found Martin Bruwer has made a ITB kit thats a straight fit for this engine...and at a affordable cost...so my next misson is to find a suitable standalone ecu hence coming on here....
this is how the car is at present...
(http://www.npoc.co.uk/ragt20/pe2007/imga2530.jpg)
some dyno figures before the car was properly mapped...
(http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/uploads/20071109_233903_DSC00298.jpg)
(http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/uploads/20071109_234314_DSC00300.jpg)
a vid of it on the dyno...
http://www.youtube.com/v/nuz-H066FdE (http://www.youtube.com/v/nuz-H066FdE)
At the time the above RR was done, I was running with a stock SR16VE ecu with no tuning
HS gen 5 header, 2.25" tapered to 2" catback basically mods that were on the car for the DE...
since the above runs, I have got the factory ecu remapped here in the UK, was done on the road, ideally need to dyno tune it. and have also got more recently fitted a Fuji header...
plans are to get a better catback...2.5" or possibly a 3", stick some 16VE or N1 cams in there and when the ITB kit arrives to get that fitted...which cams and catback I go for will now also depend on whats best with the ITBs...
I can get my head around most of the mechanical working of the engine etc...but when it comes to ecu's wiring leccy system....have no clue whatsoever...lol...
am hoping to find out from here what would be the best VEMs system to go for my setup, where to buy and what kind of price...
fitting it, am still not sure whether I would be confident enough to attempt this myself...may have to get someone's help to get it installed....
the ITBs going in the car should be like this set, currently being installed on one of the guys in SA who has help develop the setup for this engine...
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/19071531.jpg)
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/DSC02248.JPG)
Read PhatBobs experiences
http://www.vems.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=339.15
Im curious how your engine went from 150-180bhp?
Was it 150bhp with stock ecu, and 180bhp remapped?
Can you post your fuel / spark from the remapped stock ecu.
Also valve lift @ TDC if you can.
Can you also post more engine bay pics of your current setup.
Exhaust manifold, intake etc. Comrpession test figures.
Lots of data would be good :D
sorry my bad...should have explained a bit clearly re the dyno graphs above....the 149 is whp and the 180 bhp.....from the same run...
posted the two graphs as one shows the power curve etc and the other shows AFR...
I haven't had the car redynoed since having it mapped on the road....
cams are the factory standard that come with the VE...will get their specs up and post up some more pictures of the current engine bay over the weekend..
exhaust manifold is the Fuji one for the SR20VE...will find some specs of that and the intake manifold is again at present factory ....
That VE head and cam combination really looks awesome... I keep wondering about the DE->VE Hybrid.
Apparently the heads arent easy to come by though.
here are the cam specs of the current setup..
SR20VE
Intake cam
Low lobe: 8.4mm lift @ 220 duration
Low lobe center angle: 110deg
High lobe:10.7mm lift @ 264 duration
High lobe center angle: 104deg
Exhaust cam
Low lobe: 6.6 mm lift @ 244 duration
Low lobe center angle: 122deg
High lobe:10.34 mm lift @ 268 duration
High lobe center angle: 114 deg
am looking at possibly getting SR16VE N1 cams or Franklin S4 Cams...(though there is a new set of cams being tested at present which are meant to be better than both the above) so may wait till those come into production...
specs for the N1
SR16VE N1
Intake cam
Low Intake Duration: 220
Low Intake Lift: 8.4
Low Intake Center Angle: 110
Low Lobe Center Angle: 116
Low Overlap: 0
High Intake Duration: 288
High Intake Lift: 12.0
High Intake Center Angle: 104
Exhaust cam
Low Exhaust Duration: 244
Low Exhaust Lift: 7.95
Low Exhaust Center Angle:122
High Exhaust Duration: 288
High Exhaust Lift: 11.9
High Exhaust Center Angle:110
Intake Low: Opens at 0deg before TDC, Closes at 40deg After BDC
Intake High: Opens at 40deg before TDC, Closes at 68deg After BDC
Exhaust Low: Opens at 64deg before BDC, Closes at 0deg After TDC
Exhaust High: Opens at 74deg before BDC, Closes at 34deg After TDC
Quote from: [email protected] on October 08, 2008, 11:32:03 PM
That VE head and cam combination really looks awesome... I keep wondering about the DE->VE Hybrid.
Apparently the heads arent easy to come by though.
would the VE head from the FWD engine fit yours.....if so am surprised ya haven't looked on sr20forums etc...seen quite a few VE heads up for sale on there...
When ever I looked I saw that the conversion was possible (one of the forums has a step-by-step guide which I have bookmarked at home - I'll dig it out tonight.) but that the heads were hard to come by.
EDIT Here it is: http://www.sr20forum.com/sr20ve-sr16ve/162336-my-ve-head-swap-how-picture-heavy-roller-rocker.html
Its all still FWD but I understand that people have made them RWD.
The difficulty that most people seem to have with the FWD is converting the distributor to the RWD - that wouldn't be a problem for me as I'll use a crank trigger.
Got any links to available heads? ;D
So what cam specs aer in your DE head bob?
You ahrdly used DET cam timing instead of DE did you ;-D
Quote from: [email protected] on October 09, 2008, 09:12:54 AM
When ever I looked I saw that the conversion was possible (one of the forums has a step-by-step guide which I have bookmarked at home - I'll dig it out tonight.) but that the heads were hard to come by.
EDIT Here it is: http://www.sr20forum.com/sr20ve-sr16ve/162336-my-ve-head-swap-how-picture-heavy-roller-rocker.html
Its all still FWD but I understand that people have made them RWD.
The difficulty that most people seem to have with the FWD is converting the distributor to the RWD - that wouldn't be a problem for me as I'll use a crank trigger.
Got any links to available heads? ;D
here is one for sale mate... http://www.sr20-forum.com/showthread.php?t=10616 (http://www.sr20-forum.com/showthread.php?t=10616)
Something puts me off buying an unknown head from some bloke somewhere in the US.
lol aye, thats the only problem...suppose your only hope is to check out the sellar on there and check some of his/hers older posts and see how they treat their cars....
there have also been heads on there being sold by more of the established members, but they don't want to ship abroad...doh...
with going the way of Vems which features of the car do I loose having lost the use of the factory ecu?....I assume stuff like gauges etc are just a case of hooking onto the wiring into the Vems...would this be the same for the speedo, oddometer, revcounter etc....
I read on the thread ya linked to earlier in here that AC would be a problem....that'll be a bugger will have to see how or if I can get round that...
also looking at the dizzy and the disc on that thread...had a look at the spare dizzy I have sitting next to me, the disc in it is the same as the later one he got from another FWD mota...so looks like positive stuff on that front...
Hi,
Speed signal wouldn't got to the VEMs so you can leave that as "stand alone" Revcounter would be driven by VEMs there's a menu to set it up in the software.
AC would be better stand alone as well, although may require wiring/pressure switch mods dependant on how much control the factory ECU had over the AC.
Cheers,
Gavin :)
We need to work out what happens when the AC button is switched - in its simplest form all we need is a relay to activate the AC relay when the AC switch is pressed, and to connect the VEMS so that it can switch the AC off when the throttle goes over 95%.
There may be more functionality - like turning on the electric fan when the AC is on, but much of this can be replicated with relays and ECU control - we just need to figure out what it is.
Quote from: irishtwincam on October 08, 2008, 11:05:48 PM
Can you also post more engine bay pics of your current setup.
Exhaust manifold, intake etc. Comrpession test figures.
Lots of data would be good :D
the factory claimed CR of the engine is 11.1:1 (what it says in the manual basically) but a few guys over on sr20forum (ones who know what they are doing and you can fully trust) have tested this and have found the CR to be more to 10.3:1, this can be bumped to 12.5:1 by getting some 16VE pistons, shaving a 1mm off them and using them...
something I may well look at doing later on....first call for me is to get the ITBs and some standalone system (VEMS favorite at present) installed and running the car..
Personally I'd suggest getting the thing running on a standalone first, then swapping in the ITBs, minimising the size of the task by breaking it into simple steps.
Quote from: [email protected] on October 10, 2008, 03:47:41 PM
Personally I'd suggest getting the thing running on a standalone first, then swapping in the ITBs, minimising the size of the task by breaking it into simple steps.
funnliy enough that was gonna be my next question....whether it would make sense to swap over to standalone first or not...sounds like a good plan that....
Its how I did it on my car :D
pin out diag of the factory ECU....
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/P11-ECUpout.jpg)
would there be a need for extra sensors or something for the PAS as well
also to add at present the high cams switched on by the use of a Greddy MSS, which hooks onto the RPM signal going into the ECU, so when the MSS reaches the preset value for the revs, the cams come on, intake first and then exhaust, (can be set to come on together if needed) I assume with VEMS I should be able to do the same?
That pin-out is fairly straightforward...
My primary concern is that when the exhaust cam swings, the base timing will move. How does the stock CAS overcome that?
pretty sure there is nothing special within the Dizzy the disc as I mentioned is very similar to the one posted in the other FWD Nissan thread on here...
the dizzy is the same as the one on the DE engine, and I am also using a remapped DE ecu...far as I know when the cams kick in, they like the timing to be advanced quite a bit...as Jez was saying how advanced the timing was even in the map that he downloaded from my spare VE ecu. will try n find out if there is anything special that may need to be done when the hi cams kick in, but am sure its all about fuel and timing within the map...
I supose you can counter the change in the ignition map, it would be interesting to see what happens in reality. Can you gun the ignition and cause the exhaust to swing at idle?
Quote from: [email protected] on October 15, 2008, 09:54:17 PM
Can you gun the ignition and cause the exhaust to swing at idle?
sorry ya lost me with that one....how do ya mean?
Yeah, I suppose that was written in that language I only understand (I'm often doing it)
As you have an adjustable device to cause the cams to swing, can you use a timing light to see if the base timing changes if you activate the cam that has the distributor connected to it?
Quote from: [email protected] on October 16, 2008, 12:20:39 PM
Yeah, I suppose that was written in that language I only understand (I'm often doing it)
As you have an adjustable device to cause the cams to swing, can you use a timing light to see if the base timing changes if you activate the cam that has the distributor connected to it?
ah right get ya now....so in essence, change when the cams kick in to a lower RPM then when checking the timing rev over that level and see what effect it has on the base timing?
dunno if you've read this... How the VE works (http://www.sr20forum.com/neovvl-guides/70960-how-vvl-works.html)
apparently the base timing will only jump if I am too far out with the switching points and the curves are too discontinuos
some more pics of the engine bay as is...
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/IMGA2876.jpg)
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/IMGA2877.jpg)
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/IMGA2878.jpg)
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/IMGA2879.jpg)
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/IMGA2880.jpg)
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/IMGA2881.jpg)
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/IMGA2882.jpg)
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/IMGA2883.jpg)
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/IMGA2884.jpg)
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/IMGA2885.jpg)
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/IMGA2886.jpg)
ok heres a pinout for the S14A 200sx, (borrowed from the sxoc) not sure if the loom I have is similar to this or for an earlier 200sx.
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/s14aecupinouts.jpg)
now looking at that most of the important (I would say) pins are in the same position as on the Primera...
ie
CAS postions all four are in the same pinouts
TPS in the same pinouts
3 of the injectors are in the same pinouts, the s14 seems to be missing the 4 injector in that diagram...though as 112 is empty could just be a case of it being missed accidently.
far as I can see most of the ECU grounds and Power supply pinouts are also in the same place...
will write a full list side by side to make comparison easier...will also check with David if the loom is based on the above diagram
Is your ex manifold 4 into 1 or is it 4 into 2 into 1?
If 4-2-1 (not 4-1) Which primarys merge?
1&3, 2&4
1&2, 3&4
or
1&4, 2&3
I'm curious how this differs from the stock manifold!
Quote from: irishtwincam on October 20, 2008, 10:07:09 PM
Is your ex manifold 4 into 1 or is it 4 into 2 into 1?
If 4-2-1 (not 4-1) Which primarys merge?
1&3, 2&4
1&2, 3&4
or
1&4, 2&3
I'm curious how this differs from the stock manifold!
its a 4 - 2 - 1 will get some pics for ya to see how it merges etc...
from the looks of it its
1 & 4 - 2 & 3
some pics
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/fuji.jpg)
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/fuji%20diag.jpg)
The really important parts are the Grounds, the sensor ground and the thing tagged Reverse Electrical Flow or something... as that's the bit that stops the injectors from blowing-up the ECU :D
We did have some trouble getting the ECU to power on the S14 and S14a, it seems to self-power in a way we can't so a relay was made up, did Dave have that on this one?
Rob
yup the one I have off Dave has what looks like a relay on there am sure it is...
The loom I supplied you is for a Euro-spec S14a. So it should all match up.
quick side by side comparison list of the two sets of pin outs, red being ones that can clearly be seen as a match.
am sure others match as well, but for different wording?
(http://www.primera-gt20.co.uk/mygt/p11/s14-p11.jpg)
Quote from: dnb on October 20, 2008, 11:29:35 PM
The loom I supplied you is for a Euro-spec S14a. So it should all match up.
ahh so that should match the picture of the S14a pinout I posted up on the previous page
The only things I can see that don't match are the coils. Does one of them still have a rotor-arm and dizzy to distribute the sparks?
All the rest seem to be similar functions with a different name, or in the case of the grounds, it makes little difference since they are all connected together in the harness adaptor anyway.
Primera one is on the right, which is of a dizzy, I assume as there are coilpacks mentioned on teh S14 it uses them?
Yes, the S14a uses coil-on-plugs.
as I will be keeping with the dizzy and not using coil packs, will I have to make some changes to match that on the loom? to accomodate this, seeing as the loom will be designed for coilpacks...
Unless the coil outputs interfere with other functions, you don't need to change anything. Just make sure the coil outputs are turned off in the software. The coil outputs can be used as "general outputs" in the config as well as for coils.
It looks like you want to use Pin 1 for the single coil on the Distributor, I imagine that this is going to drive the coil via the stock igniter, it will be worth having a look over the wiring with a DVM. Then it would be a case of setting the Ignition Outputs to fire Stepper A (Dave can you confirm you put the wires over to the Stepper driver) four times in a row. You'll probably have to increase the dwell time on the coils.
So:
- Double click download-config.bat
- Go to the config folder and rename config.txt to configBeforeIStarted.txt - *
- Rename tables.txt to tablesBeforeIStarted.txt - *
- In Settings->Ignition Settings set the Coil chargetime @ 14V to something like 3.00 and the 6V one to something like 5.00
- Click Burn To ECU
- In Settings->Ignition Outputs check that Ignition outputs in use in h[2] is set to 03..00
- Set the values in boxes 0, 1, 2 and 3 to (STEPPER A EC18 pin 4)
- Click Burn To ECU
Quote from: [email protected] on October 21, 2008, 10:05:19 AM
It looks like you want to use Pin 1 for the single coil on the Distributor, I imagine that this is going to drive the coil via the stock igniter, it will be worth having a look over the wiring with a DVM. Then it would be a case of setting the Ignition Outputs to fire Stepper A (Dave can you confirm you put the wires over to the Stepper driver) four times in a row. You'll probably have to increase the dwell time on the coils.
So:
- Double click download-config.bat
- Go to the config folder and rename config.txt to configBeforeIStarted.txt - *
- Rename tables.txt to tablesBeforeIStarted.txt - *
- In Settings->Ignition Settings set the Coil chargetime @ 14V to something like 3.00 and the 6V one to something like 5.00
- Click Burn To ECU
- In Settings->Ignition Outputs check that Ignition outputs in use in h[2] is set to 03..00
- Set the values in boxes 0, 1, 2 and 3 to (STEPPER A EC18 pin 4)
- Click Burn To ECU
the software for this, which one is recommended, and where do I download it from.
I assume the ecu needs power for me to be able to connect to it?
What serial number is your unit?
I'll dig out the copy I have.
will be getting the car dynoed as is, in two weeks time, and will then start on getting the VEMS in and working... the dyno should hopefully give me a base showing how it is before going to VEMS.
re the air sensor, is there a specific place in the plenum I need to drill and tap to fit it, or is it a case of pick a spot and go for it...obvioulsy this will change later on once the ITBs come in to play...
also still concerned at how I am going to get the hi cams to come in, if there is no RPM feed going into the Vems.....
Quote from: G-man on October 21, 2008, 11:06:15 PM
will be getting the car dynoed as is, in two weeks time, and will then start on getting the VEMS in and working... the dyno should hopefully give me a base showing how it is before going to VEMS.
An excellent idea, nice to see that you're doing it properly, better than I did as I had no baseline to compare my improvements against!
Quote from: G-man on October 21, 2008, 11:06:15 PMre the air sensor, is there a specific place in the plenum I need to drill and tap to fit it, or is it a case of pick a spot and go for it...obvioulsy this will change later on once the ITBs come in to play...
Ideally it will be in the plenum near the throttle, sampling the air as its sucked in down into the engine, with the throttle bodies I positioned mine in between the trumpets for cylinders 2&3.
[/quote]also still concerned at how I am going to get the hi cams to come in, if there is no RPM feed going into the Vems.....[/quote]
The VEMS takes the CAS input and calculates engine speed and position to within a fraction of a percent, in the
Extras->Misc Outputs you'll see that there are a couple of settings that can be used to switch a control channel, we'll need to figure out which channels you have free, there's one already set-up to control the VVT on the S14/S14a adaptor. I don't see the pins to activate the solenoids on your pin-out table below though ???
there is no mention in the pinouts because the cams are not activated by the ecu, I'm using the Greddy MSS to activate the cams....
it is quite a simple thing to work, the solenoids are connected to it, and 1 wire from the MSS taps into RPM feed that goes into the ecu. when the revs go over a certain set limit it activates the solenoids accordingly to kick the cams in.....ECU basically has nothing to do with activating the cams, all that is left is for fueling and ignition timing to be mapped correctly within the ecu for when the cams activate...
hope that makes sense...
Quote from: G-man on October 22, 2008, 09:03:56 AM
there is no mention in the pinouts because the cams are not activated by the ecu, I'm using the Greddy MSS to activate the cams....
it is quite a simple thing to work, the solenoids are connected to it, and 1 wire from the MSS taps into RPM feed that goes into the ecu. when the revs go over a certain set limit it activates the solenoids accordingly to kick the cams in.....ECU basically has nothing to do with activating the cams, all that is left is for fueling and ignition timing to be mapped correctly within the ecu for when the cams activate...
hope that makes sense...
I'm guessing that the standard ECU had some control of the cams though?
The RPM feed comes out of the ECU, there will be a voltage on the tacho line (OEM ECU pin2) which is grounded through one of the VEMS pins, this should be the same signal as the Greddy MMS reads.
You will be able to remove the Greddy MMS and let VEMS do the switching if you so desire.
Yeah the ecu that came with the VE engine obviously did the switching job as well, though this was limited as it switched both cams on at the same time, at a set RPM...with the MSS you have the advantage of being to tune the best RPM to get the cams to come on, as well as having the ability to switch them individually....
at present my ecu is the standard non VE one, so it wouldn't have anything to do with cam switching....suppose if you could do the switching within vems and it was as flexible as the MSS re when and which to switch on first then yeah that could be the way as well..
Ah, that's the key bit I was missing.
As you're not running boost or VVT there are two Injector FET channels that you can use to control the solenoids, can you can pick their switch-on and off point with Throttle and RPM position.
Quote from: [email protected] on October 22, 2008, 02:02:45 PM
Ah, that's the key bit I was missing.
As you're not running boost or VVT there are two Injector FET channels that you can use to control the solenoids, can you can pick their switch-on and off point with Throttle and RPM position.
rpm is all that is needed, but yeah tps can be used as well
have a look at this....
http://www.sr20-forum.com/vvl/54-vvl-how-configure-greddy-mss.html#post353 (http://www.sr20-forum.com/vvl/54-vvl-how-configure-greddy-mss.html#post353)
may make things clearer
Quote from: G-man on October 22, 2008, 02:14:03 PM
rpm is all that is needed, but yeah tps can be used as well
I was talking from the perspective of the VEMS the Misc Outputs can be set at different RPM and/or TPS and/or MAP values.
As you're going to end up using AlphaN the MAP function will be redundant.
As for wiring it all up:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/jsaxophone/other2/MSShookup.jpg)
The yellow and green wires would go to two spare injector FETs
And the red wire would go to either the ECCS power supply, or from its current supply.
Quote from: [email protected] on October 22, 2008, 02:39:22 PM
I was talking from the perspective of the VEMS the Misc Outputs can be set at different RPM and/or TPS and/or MAP values.
As you're going to end up using AlphaN the MAP function will be redundant.
being a total newbie when it comes to VEMS and tuning it, can ya explain a bit more about the above? I assume AlphaN is another software/way of tuning VEMS?
whats the implications of not having the MAP function?
There are several ways of calculating engine load and its fuelling/ignition, we use either Speed Density - where the MAP pressure and RPM are fundamental in calculating the engine load, and AlphaN where throttle position and RPM are used (with correction for Temperature, barometric pressure and some other odds and ends).
Speed density is a great way to calculate load, but only when you have a clean vacuum or boost signal, when you get into lumpy cams, and throttle bodies vacuum signals get noisey and loose resolution, with ITBs you can't see much of a vacuum change between 50% and 95% throttle but the fuelling requirements are very different... So throttle position is a better solution in these cases.
Rob
ahh ok, understand now, and funnily enough the contact I have in SA who is trailing the first set in a VE is using Gotech standalone EMS for his management, and he will be tuning by TPS and RPMS only as well...
It really is the only way for ITBs, and works perfectly for normally aspirated engines. The trouble comes when you try turbos with ITBs...
Quote from: [email protected] on October 22, 2008, 09:47:30 PM
It really is the only way for ITBs, and works perfectly for normally aspirated engines. The trouble comes when you try turbos with ITBs...
lol not a problem for me, as one modified turboed car is enough....its NA all the way with this one... ;D
with the map function being totally redundant when going Alpha N, does it mean the Map sensor is now not needed, or is it still used to preform other functions? wonder if it could be used in some way to keep the PAS and AC working by kicking up idle speed when those two come into play.....
The MAP will sit breathing fresh air and factoring the base air pressure into the fuelling algorithm using the Barometric correction functions.
IAC is controlled by the ECU, it senses the RPM drop and tries to compensate using IACV duty and ignition advance control.