There may be one or 2 things that i need to tweak that i didn't notice
I"m running a 3 Rotor engine
The firing configuration is 1-2-3. Each rotor fires once per revolution (0* - 120* - 240*)
My injector setup consists of 6 injectors.
-3 550cc primary injectors for idling and low range
-3 1600cc secondary staged injectors to pick up extra fuel demand for the top end
My ignition setup consists of 3 coils with no ignitors attached.
Heres most of the menu options for all my settings.
(http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/vems/settings.jpg)
Got an update of changes from Jason on his recommendations
-4 cycle
-6 cylinder
-3000 rpm constant
-injpwm DC to 100% (my injectors are high impedence)
-MAP(load) multiplication disabled
-On alternate banks i had it set up as 3..0 instead of 2..0 (for primary injectors)
Injector ramp up time looks a tad short at 72
Have a read here http://megasquirtavr.sourceforge.net/manual/Detailed.Output.Fuel.html#Config
I would suggest a value of 800 as a point to start and tune from there ;)
coil charge time looks a little large at 4.5, try 3 to start with, unless you know the 4.5 to be correct
I'll look into the rampup. On our coils 4.5 dwell is just right. Most of the haltech guys use anywhere from 4-4.5ms
Just another thought, would a three rotor engine be classed as an 'odd fire' engine?
I think jason would have pointed it out if it was. What makes you say that though?
Dunno, i was thinking its a three cylinder engine, thats all. I supose it depends what is meant by engine type, what is an odd fire engine.
This was the main reason for asking the question, maybe to highlight a possible mal configuration?
Oh I also plan to use the tach output. 2 questions:
I was planning on putting a 1000ohm resistor between 12v in and the #3 pin, from what I've read this should work (pending that my tach takes the 12v signal) will it?
and what is the divider on the tachometer setting?
Just a last check on my H tables:
h[0]=01 03 06 0B 14 25 00 00
h[1]=AF 74 AF BA B1 74 AF 74
h[2]=20 10 00 00 00 00 00 00
I'm really sketchy on the injector setup. While cranking i wasnt getting injector pulses out of injectors 4-5-6 which is good, but i want to make sure that my injector staging will work properly since i haven't seen any staged injector setups yet.
Heres what my staged injector setup looks like injector 1 is on the front rotor and injector 3 is the rear rotor:
4-5-6
1-2-3
Also my injector output table has changed in megatune
0----1
1----3
2----6
3----11
4----20
5----37
Looking at the H[0] table...
The 1's indicate the FET channels that will be firing with each entry.
| H[0] | | | 32 | 16 | 8 | 4 | 2 | 1 |
| 25 | | | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 |
| 14 | | | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
| 0B | | | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 |
| 06 | | | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 |
| 03 | | | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 |
| 01 | | | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
Which shows a lot of activity on four and a number of channels being fired twice...
I'm not sure what you're looking for with this, is it something like:
| H[0] | | | 32 | 16 | 8 | 4 | 2 | 1 |
| 24 | | | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
| 12 | | | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
| 09 | | | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
| 04 | | | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
| 02 | | | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
| 01 | | | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
So my table should look like :
h[0]= 32 16 08 04 02 01 00 00
Each one of the primary injectors 1-2-3 will fire once per engine revolution in that exact order.
I want to get the primary injectors right but I don't want the secondaries to kick in till a certain kPa value.
h[2] table still looks incorrect?? is '00' not used to disable the entry?? so you only have two ignition chanels??
*Edit* Apparently not ::)
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=GenBoard%2FManual%2FDigitalOut%2FTable
That injector table would be correct if you want to swap the primaries over to the secondaries.
What do you mean by swap? Like the secondaries would be firing as the primaries? Would you care to give an example of a correct table for this?
Heres my setup now, in case there's any confusion:
(http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/vems/staging.jpg)
Well something is definately up. My turbo and manifold are glowing RED hot and my steering rack boot has now melted haha. Timing seems to be dead on and steady so i think something is up injection wise. Here's my H0 table
h[0]=01 02 04 08 10 20 00 00
I'm thinking i might have my primary lineup backwards. Any advice here?
You might find its too rich.
When i first started mine, it ran real rough, the exhaust was extremely hot, and at one point I had a two foot flame out the back!!
Once its running, reduce the required fuel setting untill it runs reasonabley well and long enough to get the lambda sensor reading aound 0.95. Tune the VE table from there.
Dont forget that if its missfiring, the lambda sensor will read the excess oxygen, not the fuel, so will react by adding more fuel compounding the problem. Get the engine to run on all cylinders/ rotors reasonable smoothly to get a fairly good Lambda reading and tune it from there.
What does the VE table look like in the first place? might be worth reviewing the values around idle if they are quite high. Dont forget that the VE table and the required fuel value are directly related.
Not sure on the injector set up. Are you running three + three injectors staged?
correct on the staging. It's got a really nice smooth idle and seems to run just as smooth up through most of the rpm range. For the time being i have all of the low range timing set at 15* out of boost.
I adjusted my table to:
h[0]=04 02 01 20 10 08 00 00
I dont have the lambada sensor connected on the ECU yet. I just have my in-car wideband
Oh! big question: Under injection staging. I dont know of anyone that may have played around with this already but I have no clue what to stick in the section of "Rate To Calculated Pulse Width [0.4%]
My injectors are
Primaries: 550cc
Secondaries: 1600cc
I've been asking the team and the guy who wrote the software has not visited recently. I'll maybe send him an email in a day or so if I dont come across him.
Thanks, that'll be helpful. If you can, see whats all involved in the complete setup of staged injection. You could probably use my setup as an example ;)
Anything back on the staging yet?
Not as yet, best I find his email to prompt him.
Rob
I've only managed to find one person using staged injection:
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FGerbenvdLei
Quote
Staging
I added 4 injectors to my engine. So I now have 4 injectors aiming at the valves and 4 upstream. The secondary injectors are 305 cc and the primary injectors 240 cc.
Configuration:
I configured VEMS to do injector staging.
* rate to calculated pulsewidth (inj_stage2_rate) to 200
* TPS position to 0%
* MAP value to 130 kpa.
Changed the firmware so the secondaries can be larger than the primaries.
I changed the VE table so all values above 130 kpa are devided by 2.
It works. Not quite how I had expected but after a bit of fiddling with the inj_stage2_rate it works.
---
Megatune showed wrong voltage:
* Only problem is the volt meter in Megatune. It gives 20 volt readings while battery voltage is 13 v.
o You probably missed to calibrate it, adjust battery calibration. Default batt_cal=0xBC (decimal 188) or so
+ thanks for that!
Is is h[2] table around at all?
Rob
I emailed him. Hopefully the email address provided is current. haven't heard anything back on your side yet either?
Yes and no.
Yes I've heard back as his business partner has replied to say that he's seen the email. No in that he's not had a chance to find out.
Doing a search on staging in the wiki seemed to indicate that the injectors that were staged were defined in h[2] line 7, not sure how that would work though.
Rob
Now we've got something back from Dave, the guy who wrote it:
Quote
Nice to hear you are giving the injector staging a try :) I don't think
its used that often but we have used it on the 206gti project car with
great success.
The configuration can be a bit troublesome if you are not running a 4
cylinder though, because the h[2] entries are currently hardwired to
the first set using injchmax (injchmax must be lower than or equal to
3) entries and the second set 4 + injchmax entries. First set can use
X's, second set Y's -> h[2] = XX XX XX XX YY YY YY YY, example:
4 cyl, (phase sequential) using inj a-d as first set and e-h as second
set would need h[2] = 01 02 04 08 10 20 40 80
than for a 6 cyl, running two groups of injectors inj a-c first set,
inj d-f second set would need h[2] 01 02 04 XX 08 10 20 XX, the XX are
open for other functions on inj g-h.
The configuration is pretty straight forward, "Rate to calculated pw
[0.4%]" means, first set size divided by second set size, e.g. first
set twice as small as second set would leave us with a ratio of 50%.
Can't thank you enough rob. I'll start playing with it tonight.
Here's my proposed setup
h[2]= 04 02 01 00 20 10 08 00
And rate to calculated pulse width is set to 35%
Primaries will be 550's secondaries will be 1600's
The injector firing order will be exactly in this order:
01-02-04 Primaries
08-10-20 Secondaries
That was Dave's work not mine ;D
Should be interesting to see how you get on.
It doesnt seem to be working. I have my fuel tables pretty fat and when i get up there i see the gauge climb to around a 15:1 AFR. I'm not sure if its engaging or what. Those settings i put in should be correct...
Which firmware are you using?
If you have not seen it yet, this may help ???
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=GenBoard%2FUnderDevelopment%2FStagedInjectors
I'm not sure if my settings from megatune are transferring over to my actual configuration. This is my Terminal mcd configuration.
Things like my E-fan stay on even if the car is cold.
primep=00
primep_temp_scaling=A8
cwl=50
cwh=23
cranking_thres=04
awev=08
awev_temp_scaling=A0
awec=D2
warmup_clt_range[0]=00
warmup_clt_range[1]=10
warmup_clt_range[2]=24
warmup_clt_range[3]=38
warmup_clt_range[4]=50
warmup_clt_range[5]=64
warmup_clt_range[6]=78
warmup_clt_range[7]=8C
warmup_clt_range[8]=AA
warmup_clt_range[9]=C8
warmup_clt[0]=64
warmup_clt[1]=64
warmup_clt[2]=64
warmup_clt[3]=64
warmup_clt[4]=82
warmup_clt[5]=7D
warmup_clt[6]=78
warmup_clt[7]=73
warmup_clt[8]=6E
warmup_clt[9]=64
warmup_rpm_scale=63
req_fuel=2D
divider=01
alternate=12
injopen=00
battfac=00
kpafac=7D
kpaoffs=D1
injocfuel=21
injrampup_battfac=FF
injpwm=FF
injpwmt=08
als_launch_input=0C
rpmk[0]=0B
rpmk[1]=B8
tpsdot_kpadot_conf=00
tpsdotrate[0]=05
tpsdotrate[1]=14
tpsdotrate[2]=28
tpsdotrate[3]=4D
tpsaq[0]=00
tpsaq[1]=00
tpsaq[2]=00
tpsaq[3]=00
als_cut_mintps=CC
tpsasync=0A
acmult=64
tpsacold=14
launch_enrich=FF
launch_retard=FF
overrun_fuelcut=FF
overrun_fuelresume=FF
rev_limit=55
airden_ignore=62
config11=51
config12=30
config13=06
batt_cal=BC
fastidle=80
als_max_cut=20
dbaro=0C
tps_low=1D
tps_high=91
fan_temp=CA
fan_hyst=45
fan_channel=07
iac_step_seq=D8
iac_conf=00
iac_max_steps=00
iac_tps_thres=00
iac_cold_idle_temp=48
iac_warm_idle_temp=48
iac_cold_rpm=00
iac_warm_rpm=00
iac_cold_start_pos=00
iac_warm_start_pos=00
iac_afterstart_rpm=00
iac_afterstart_duration=00
iac_speed=07
iac_kp=25
iac_ki=10
iac_kd=30
launch_rpm=40
iac_integral_limit_dec=33
iac_integral_limit_inc=E4
iac_integral_deadband=0A
iac_deadband=FE
als_cut_maxtps=00
iac_overclose_interval=FF
iac_ref_pos[0]=00
iac_ref_pos[1]=00
iac_ref_pos[2]=00
iac_ref_pos[3]=00
iac_ref_pos[4]=00
iac_ref_pos[5]=00
iac_ref_pos[6]=00
iac_ref_pos[7]=00
iac_ref_pos[8]=00
iac_ref_pos[9]=00
iac_sol_channel=7F
iac_ign_slope=FF
softrpm_range=4B
iac_ign_advance_limit=00
iac_ign_retard_limit=00
iac_ign_threshold=08
ego_conf=06
ego_lag=02
ego_coolant=00
ego_maxtps=FF
ego_maxmap=FF
ego_minrpm=05
ego_maxrpm=46
ego_warmup=DC
ego_lean_limit=0D
ego_rich_limit=1A
ego_pid_kp=25
als_enrich=FF
ego_delta=03
ego_target=19
ego_pid_window=FF
wbo2_warmup_ramp=9C
als_react_tps=00
wbo2_abs_limit=E4
wbo2_limit_maxt=A0
wbo2_fallback=60
wbo2_retry_t=06
wbo2_edgetime_corr=BA
wbo2_edgetime_min=50
wbo2_ri_target=96
wbo2_nernstdc_target=8F
wbo2_pump_pw_zero=66
wbo2_calibration=AB
wbo2_heater_pid_kp=46
wbo2_heater_pid_ki=10
wbo2_heater_pid_kd=1A
wbo2_heater_pid_ilimit=80
wbo2_pump_pid_kp=2E
wbo2_pump_pid_ki=2A
wbo2_pump_pid_kd=08
wbo2_pump_pid_ilimit=84
wbo2_ri_confidence_scale=80
knock_conf=00
knock_sampling_window=FF
knock1_frequency=E9
knock1_gain=C0
knock1_integrator=F4
knock2_frequency=E9
knock2_gain=C0
knock2_integrator=F4
knock_threshold=00
knock_noise_scale=00
knock_max_retard=00
knock_default_retard=00
knock_retard_step=00
knock_retard_delay=00
knock_advance_step=00
knock_advance_delay=00
knock_minrpm=FF
knock_maxrpm=FF
ve_learn_coolant=BD
ve_learn_max_power=FF
ve_learn_rpm_scale=1E
ve_learn_kpa_scale=1E
ve_learn_ego_scale=43
ve_learn_min_weight=AC
ve_learn_speed=FF
ve_learn_limit=FF
ve_learn_conf=00
lcd_c0=C4
lcd_delay=FF
lcd_backlight=FF
kpa_conf=21
ign_balance=00
als_retard_mintps=FF
als_retard_maxtps=00
lcd_default_view=00
primary_trigger=05
secondary_trigger=02
tooth_wheel=0B
trigger_tooth=01
another_trigger_tooth=04
crank_minper=50
tooth_wheel_twidth1=00
tooth_wheel_twidth2=00
cam_sync_r_edge_phase=FF
cam_sync_f_edge_phase=FF
reset_engphase_after=FF
ign_tdcdelay=7D
ign_dwell14=37
ign_dwell6=1E
ign_crank_advance=00
ign_out=70
ignchmax=02
engine_off_delay=4C
pump_on_mintime=04
fuelpump_channel=57
inj_stage2_rate=C8
inj_stage2_start_tps=00
inj_stage2_start_map=64
als_deact_rpm=FF
als_deact_time=00
als_deact_egt=00
als_retard=FF
als_rev_limit=FF
misc1out_minrpm=FF
misc1out_maxrpm=FF
misc1out_mintps=FF
misc1out_maxtps=FF
misc1out_minmap=FF
misc1out_maxmap=FF
misc1out_channel=FF
misc2out_minrpm=FF
misc2out_maxrpm=FF
misc2out_mintps=FF
misc2out_maxtps=FF
misc2out_minmap=FF
misc2out_maxmap=FF
misc2out_channel=FF
act_wot_rpm=FF
act_wot_channel=0F
act_rpm_rpm=FF
act_rpm_channel=FF
egt1_cal=49
als_tks_channel=1F
boost_conf=00
boost_targetoffs=00
boost_minpressure=7F
boost_pid_kp=0B
boost_pid_ki=7F
boost_pid_kd=0D
boost_pid_ilimit=7F
boost_channel=2F
water_pump_temp=00
hybrid_rpm_a=00
hybrid_rpm_m=00
water_pump_hyst=00
water_pump_channel=0F
toothrel_normal=0A
toothrel_missing=7F
fuelcut_min_kpa=14
fuelcut_max_kpa=C8
tach_channel=0F
tach_div=0E
shiftcut_conf=81
shiftcut_channel=13
shiftcut_time=80
softrpm_rpm=5A
Shouldnt these be like this instead?
inj_stage2_rate=37
inj_stage2_start_tps=00
inj_stage2_start_map=80
I have it set to 37 in megatune
TPS:0
and Map is set to: 80
And my Fan setup should be?
fan_temp=77
fan_hyst=76
Also what does he mean by "(injchmax must be lower than or equal to
3)"
Its short hand for saying that no more than channels 0 to 3 should be used as primary injectors.
I think we may be having to get a specific peice of firmware compiled for this, there are some doubts if the Injector staging was activated in the release you're using.
Rob
Should i update to a newer firmware then?
Yes, but its a specific version for your staged injector needs.
So what version/release will i need? I've got all the low end stuff worked out but i cant touch boost until these things are operational. I wish there was a way to tell if they're staging. The only way i have to know right now is to either wait to feel a bit of a jolt when they kick on or notice it in the AFR gauge.
Also need to note that at below 0*C weather tonight that i was having a hell of a time trying to get my car to move without dying (sub 4K rpm under heavy slipping). I've also noticed this even at warmer weather when the engine is cold. As soon as i start slipping the clutch a little bit my AFR's lean waaaay the hell out and the motor dies. I have my enrichment tables set up and i don't really think my acceleration pump cold correction factor would have anything to do with it seeing as how the throttle is already sitting at one position only while i slip the clutch. Unless i need to bump my enrichment tables waaaaaaay the hell up.
This is the area where you need to start experimenting, datalogging and quantifying your results, OEMs spend a hell of a lot of time and money getting cold weather running to an acceptable state.
Your TPS isnt moving, but your load is increasing - so you're moving more vertically in the table than normal...
Yeah i'll play around with it a bit more.
Any word on what firmware i should be using?? Do you want my current MCD and MCT files to send to them for analysis? I think everything should be set up correctly.
I think that Jason is going to be the man to talk to about the firmware, he's been a bit busy recently with work, thanksgiving and one of the VEMS developers fromn Sweden visiting him. Might be an idea to give him a nudge.
Rob
I just got a firmware compiled for me tonight. I have to bench test it though. I don't want to give out a un-tested firmware compile.
I'll hopefully have some time tonight to bench test it. We have an ECU to repair anyway, so we'll be at the work bench.
Great to hear. Let me know if you want me to do any on the car testing on this end. I'm pretty anxious to get this working.
So i'm assuming that the injector staging wasn't set up in the release of firmware i have then? Since you have one of the developers there with you can you ask and see if theres any specific way to see if the secondary injectors are firing?
Injector staging is a special feature. Not part of the normal firmware. I'm testing it now. I see something I'm unsure of, so I'll probably have to question Dave about it (the guy that wrote that code).
I'll try a couple of more setups and see what it brings first. I'll let you know when I have success.
Thanks for your patience. I know you're anxious.
Hi Brendan,
I have got the injector staging working quite well on the bench. My car isn't together enough to test it yet. Plus it's 10 Degrees F today. >:(
You're welcome to try it, but be very, very careful. Until it's officially tested on a running car you're on your own to decide whether it's working or not.
http://www.vems.hu/download/v3/firmware/v3_firmware_1.0.75.zip
I tested it with 6 injectors A, B, C as primary, and D,E,F as secondary. Worked as advertised. When MAP got above 140 kpa (where I had the second stage set) all 6 were firing.
If you want help please provide full mcd and mct so I can re-create the setup.
Thanks!
Thanks jason
I just tried playing with the new firmware, but there is a couple of issues. When i tried starting the car the injector PW went up to 13ms where its originally somewhere around 5 ms. Also my VE map and my spark map do not stay in the ECU i load up the maps from my saved MSQ files and as soon as i shut off the key and turn it back on all my settings go to 0.
Sounds like you're using a MegaTune from a wrong release version. The VEMS cannot loose its map or configuration settings, which suggests that the maps are not getting written to the ECU. Never use an MSQ for changing firmware types, use the config and tables (download-config.bat, generate-configXXxYY.bat, and upload-config.bat)
Rob
I uploaded my pervious Config and Tables the normal way but still it doesnt show up in megatune. Megatune recognizes that its 1.0.75 release at the top. So how do i get megatune to work with the firmware that jason posted up?
I'll try and attract jason's attention - 1.0.75 might need a 1.1.x MegaTune to work.
Rob
No, the 1.0.73 MT works fine with 1.0.75 firmware. I've been assuming that no support was requested since there are no mcd/mct files as I asked for if support was requested.
Oh sorry about that jason. Here they are. They may be slightly older versions. I wrote over my new ones on accident.
http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/vems/stagedconfig.txt
http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/vems/stagedtables.txt
your config bench tests fine. You do have Anti-lag turned on though for some unknown reason.
Go to Extras -> Advanced ALS and change the "Input channel used" to DISABLED.
If I'm not mistaken your Injector staging "Rate to calculated PW" should be 86 not 35. This is because it's in 0.4% units. The calculation is 34.375%, but you need to divide that by 0.4 to get it into 0.4% units. If I were you I would have the open threshold to be 110 kpa, or maybe even a bit higher than that. You have 75 kpa now.
I tried all of those settings on the bench too and everything looks great. It's great to play with the pressure a bit and see the secondary channels come on. ;D
Note I didn't touch a MSQ file at all. I loaded your configs the proper way and everything works great. Pulse width is about 6.5ms at 3000rpm & 109 kpa. It drops to about 1.8ms once it hits 110 kpa which is what I configured as the secondary activation point. 1600's are big secondaries. :-)
Corrected the Antilag. Dont know how that got changed...
I'll try the 85% rate to calculated PW as well
I realized what i was doing wrong. I got mixed up on firmware versions that were in that folder i didn't realize that there was the 12x12 and a 14x16 files in there. Thats why megatune didn't take to well to it. I'll try starting the car tomorrow hopefully the 13ms times don't show back up again.
Alright so i actually went out and played with the car today. I'm pretty certain my injectors aren't staging. I separated the Throttle body elbow so that the car would run N/A (I cant afford having the motor detonate under boost). I set my secondary KPA switch on value at 75 and the Throttle position activation at 0. with my calculated PW at 86%. The one thing i noticed that when I got to that KPA value while driving the car would run into a lean stumble and at some points even cut fuel completely. I noticed that my PW values dropped from about 5ms to around 2ms, my biggest concern was the lean dead spot when the injectors staged(if they even are staging).. and thats just not good for boosted loads. I'll run through and make sure all my wiring is correct tomorrow and hopefully i can get a log for you.
I was wondering how you were doing on your project. :-)
I would check closely the wiring to the secondary injectors. If you send me your config.txt/tables.txt again I'd be happy to bench test again for a sanity check. Though it's nearly 60*F here today I'm stuck at work, and not in a position to run the car right now anyway. The cage is only half installed due to the opressive cold weather the last several weeks.
-Jason
This is a bit cleane
http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/mcdfeb08.txt
http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/mctfeb08.txt
I was just noticing while trying to figure out my staged injection issue that my PW were jumping into the 10-13MS range causing my engine to stumble out. I noticed this occurrence at around 100kpa at around 6000 RPM my VE table shows that i should only be at around 150% and my Req_fuel is only set at 4.5. Heres my MSQ for a quick look if anybody has time. I'll get my log up in one second
http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/vems/3rotor.msq
Well i think i figured out my issue. As we discussed previously in this thread I set my Rate to calculated PW back down to 35 and Presto! I have the fuel i needed under boost. I had it set to 85 per instructions given to me with the software. The only odd thing, As soon as i get into boost my AFR drops from a 12 to a 9 around where my injection stages. I can hope to assume this is just due to my 10 degree timing drop around that point. Either that or the mystery of where my Rate to Calculated PW should be continues. Anyways. Just thought i'd share the good news and offer a big thanks for you guys help to this point.
Nice work, I think you'll find that theres always going to be a few issues around the point where the fuel crosses over - it may be possible to do some mapping work to help reduce it, you may find that the break points in the tables could be better placed around the point where the injector phasing occurs.
Datalog what happens and post it on the wiki so that the developers get to see it, it may prompt a response once they have real data.