I'm using a 60-2 with a VR crank and Hall cam secondary. Logically I would expect 58 primary per cycle, and 1 secondary for each 2 cycles (This is pretty fundamental isn't it?). for some reason I get a pretty nice steady log at idle but when I rev things seem to go haywire. Shouldn't the triggering remain the same, only faster at higher rpms?
I have weird primary 'misses', and occasional secondary 'misses', and even occasional blocks (2 cycles maybe) where no triggering appears at all.
for troubleshooting:
- I have a good solid mount for my VR sensor
- both of my Cam/Crank sensors are shielded and situated away from ignition leads (although somewhat near the injector leads)
- I have tried 2 VR sensors with very similar trigger log results
- I have adjusted the crank sensor within factory spec'd tolerances, between max and min
- Things did improve quite a bit when I got to the 'closest' tolerance, but I didn't want to go too close unless it's really called for(?)
I'm hoping for some help reviewing this trigger log and info on what type of information I can learn from it
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-2013-03-30-13.48.12.triggerlog
Thanks!
Four stroke cycle is 720 deg if about fundamentals.
Do you receive trigger errors at higher revs or your problem is just messed triggerlog. If second - it is just because of too slow data stream.
my fundamentals question was more 'it should look the same (relatively of course) at high and low RPM's?' (and assuming the data sampling is fast enough).
or to ask it another way: There are no 'intricacies' at higher RPM's that would cause the trigger *pattern to change wildly.
I am sampling at 55k baud rate, and there is a misfire and 'pr less trig' error at ~3200 rpms. The ECU appears to be totally lost due to missing triggers, and maybe even unexpected triggers. So it throws an error, resets, backfires and then resynchronizes as I am already decelerating by this point. -Recall at lower RPMs, the triggering is fine.
I should note that I'm in the process of low speed mapping and tuning, driving around my neighborhood. It's not ready for any speedy driving yet, and I haven't reached 4000 RPM's yet, at any point.
If I can be assured (by someones confirmation) that I should be able to look at the trigger log and see a steady pattern at any rpm, then I'd have more confidence my troubleshooting path.
Yes pattern should stay the same all the rpm range. However it is not a big problem if cam sync signal drift. Until missing gap or close to it.
Most helpful tool for further diagnostics would be oscilloscope.
Excellent, thank you!
So, I've been making slow progress and tuning one tiny step at a time but I'm still getting triggering issues at ~3200 RPM or so.
After doing a lot of diagnostics, miscellaneous troubleshooting, rewiring, and even a little timing adjustment (to semi-rule out 'horrible timing' as the culprit), I'm pretty much still at square 1.
Yesterday I searched the internet for "VEMS, Trigger error at 3000" or something like that and many results came back that started me wondering if I'm experiencing what has been discussed and resolved sometime back.
Here is my symptom:
The car starts and accelerates relatively well, until almost exactly 3200 and then I get trigger errors and an ECU reset (indicated by afterstart, warmup etc. lights coming on).
I reproduce this issue as follows:
Turn out onto a 1/2 mile stretch of road
Accelerate at slow to medium speed in 1st until the trigger error at 3200 --> trailer hitch, bounce, shudder, hesitation and whatever else you'd like to call it
Repeat in 2nd gear
Repeat in 3rd gear, but more gingerly since I'm approaching 3200 already, and I usually shift early or brace for backfire (tailgaters love this next part :-D)
Shift into 4th. If I trig error-ed in 3rd, I expect a large backfire, but if not I accelerate nice, very slow and steady to about 3400 or maybe even 3500 and then pull back into my neighborhood.
I've done this probably 30 times in the last few weeks, and the results are almost exactly the same every time.
The reading I've done seems to suggest some possibilities, but this information is quite old, and the threads suggest that a few small changes would solve it. This made me think they were likely to already be implemented in the system(?):
A) secondary (Hall) window and Primary (VR) "Zero" trigger Not being close enough (I'm pretty sure mine a many teeth apart)
B) Not having an "inverter" (I bought the system directly from the VEMS website; never thought to look for a pre configured one)
C) Not wired correctly, so that the VR is triggering backward (I'm not certain about this, but I have moved the primary trigger wires around many times and tested with no success)
I have tested my sensors on an oscilloscope, and they seem to trigger nice and steady, but I have not yet gotten around to testing "at" the EC36 connector.
Can someone comment on the likelihood of A, B or C being my issue, and if not -What might I be missing?
My VEMS was purchased new from the "factory" not too long ago, and I'm also using current firmware.
Thanks for any help, I have been trying to get this car on the road for soo long! ???
Can you post some .vemslog ?
I can't recall any case where trigerlog caused ECU resets. Usually it is just trigger errors.
60-2 do not require inverter for cam sensor. It is installed just in boards ordered with Auditrigger.
Hmmm, well that changes things, what about the timing of the 2 triggers?
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/Log1.vemslog
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/Log2.vemslog
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/Log3.vemslog
Your ecu doesn't reset(see clock in log).
Problem is with sec trigger. Try rissing edge(you need to change outputs) or you can filtered wrong pulses with new firmware and value 250.
Also your inj angle table is in wrong dirrection(rpms).
I'm net sure what the injector angle table is used for (I'm an understudy :)), if we're referring to the same thing, I just used a value from the drop list IIRC.
Can you clarify the use of that table?
Injector timing curve is used to advance the injectio timing point as rpm ries this is more to do with emissions but can also see an improvement iin torque.
Quote from: Sprocket on May 04, 2013, 08:23:21 AM
Injector timing curve is used to advance the injectio timing point as rpm ries this is more to do with emissions but can also see an improvement iin torque.
Hm.
Yesterday i mapped 2.0 16v engine, 9000rpm, 267HP. Only with that angle it gains 7HP.
Also tested on one 2.0 20v turbo engine, gain was 20HP.
Hello, same issue to me, audi 20vt AAN 60-2 +camsync, starts,runs fine up to 3200rpm, then sudden primary trigger loss, huge missfire an so on. Tried a lot of things, like pulling LM1815 5 leg to +, software chinging from , even changed primary sensor to HALL, but with no effect. But..
Yesterday, after whole week of sleepless nights changed VR sender from Hitachi (old audi turbo, 500 ohm imp. ) to bosch one from vectra B ABS ( 1500 ohm imp),allso changed main ground cable to 6mm2 (was 2x2mm2), and finaly grounded 1 extra sensor ground from ignition coil sensor ground to intake manifold . Ignition coils -beru grey ones from 2,0tfsi. AND IT'S OK ;D
firmware 1.2.9
- Hmmm, are these sensors easy to come by? I'd like to try one, but Vauxhall is not sold in the states. Not sure if it crosses with another model around here either.
Quote from: Marty on May 07, 2013, 06:11:50 PM
- Hmmm, are these sensors easy to come by? I'd like to try one, but Vauxhall is not sold in the states. Not sure if it crosses with another model around here either.
audi, renault, opel, vauxhall,bmw ... lots of model use the same model.
Plastic case bosch vr sensor, with square sensing window, should be on other cars as well.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VAUXHALL-VECTRA-B-ALL-MODELS-FRONT-WHEEL-SPEED-ABS-SENSOR-95-02-/110992458164?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19d7aa81b4
what is starnge about it, that it's a directional sensor - e.g. works only in certain possition, if you turn it 90deg - signal is gone
Allso you can try changing main ground cable location, like firewall.
I was thinking about this last night, and came up wondering if the "Engine speed sensor" is the same model as the "TDC sensor" on these Audis. The failure threshold seems to be just about 3200 rpm's for many people, and I'm guessing that me and several others are using a "TDC" sensor...
- Maybe this sensor gets saturated and fails due to the (60x) triggering increase when using it this way(?).
Today I'm going to test an ABS sensor from the Audi and see what the outcome is. This one measures close to 1300 ohms FWIW, and is likely a very 'precise' sensor given it's application. I have a bracket half made so far, and tonight I'll finish it up and give it a try.
This could make a ton of difference, thanks for the thought!
I have relocated my battery to the trunk:
- 2g (6mm) chassis ground in the trunk,
- 2g (6mm) from the battery to the engine bay (chassis, ground)
- 2g (6mm) engine block to chassis ground
well... that didn't help. with the ABS sensor I could only get 2999 rpms before it crapped out.
(Edit)
@MWFire, for the sectrig filter: is it the "sectrig maximum value" field you are referring to set at 250?
well, sad to hear that it didn't help to cure that missfire problem :-[
what ignition coils are you using?Some of them are injecting ground noise into sensor gnd, because sec. winding groud has an internal connection to sensor gnd
all main ground paths 6mm2, and vems main ground connected with the same thickness cable? eg 6mm2? (5pwr gnds-> 6mm2 cable -> intake manifold or firewall?
Quote from: Marty on May 08, 2013, 03:00:55 PM
I was thinking about this last night, and came up wondering if the "Engine speed sensor" is the same model as the "TDC sensor" on these Audis. The failure threshold seems to be just about 3200 rpm's for many people, and I'm guessing that me and several others are using a "TDC" sensor...
- Maybe this sensor gets saturated and fails due to the (60x) triggering increase when using it this way(?).
Today I'm going to test an ABS sensor from the Audi and see what the outcome is. This one measures close to 1300 ohms FWIW, and is likely a very 'precise' sensor given it's application. I have a bracket half made so far, and tonight I'll finish it up and give it a try.
This could make a ton of difference, thanks for the thought!
I have relocated my battery to the trunk:
- 2g (6mm) chassis ground in the trunk,
- 2g (6mm) from the battery to the engine bay (chassis, ground)
- 2g (6mm) engine block to chassis ground
your ground cables are too weak, engine block chasis ground must be ~20mm or something, battery to chasis 20mm too, and then, ecu----cylinder head 6mm are ok. rpm problems means poor wiring, poor grounding..
Here is the size of ground leads, I believe they are sufficient. I have one grounded at the back, and one at the front, plus the block ground.
- In the US this is 2gauge, with diameter 6.35mm.
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/photo%20-2.jpg)
Here's a shot of my coils; they are LS2 style high output coils.
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/photo%20-1.jpg)
- Also my ignition coils are grounded to the battery. That may be a poor choice, so this evening I guess I'll 'chassis' ground the coils and double check the ECU ground.
I'm using the VEMS V3 harness with relays, so all of the ground leads are secure; I'll verify my ground point though, maybe some improvement can be made there.
Quote from: Marty on May 09, 2013, 04:01:30 PM
Here is the size of ground leads, I believe they are sufficient. I have one grounded at the back, and one at the front, plus the block ground.
- In the US this is 2gauge, with diameter 6.35mm.
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/photo%20-2.jpg)
Here's a shot of my coils; they are LS2 style high output coils.
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/photo%20-1.jpg)
:D when I wrote 20mm I mean 20 square mm your grounds are more than enough
Quote from: Kamuto on May 09, 2013, 09:37:00 PM
Quote from: Marty on May 09, 2013, 04:01:30 PM
Here is the size of ground leads, I believe they are sufficient. I have one grounded at the back, and one at the front, plus the block ground.
- In the US this is 2gauge, with diameter 6.35mm.
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/photo%20-2.jpg)
Here's a shot of my coils; they are LS2 style high output coils.
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/photo%20-1.jpg)
:D when I wrote 20mm I mean 20 square mm your grounds are more than enough
i know others are using capacitor on these coils, because these ones are noisy
You are going in wrong direction. Your problems are only with sloppy cam belt(so sec trigger is moving form 355 to 360+ deg).
Just change sec trigger edge and also primary trigger to get exact TDC.
Can you be a little more descriptive?
- if you think it's belt slop, should I tighten the belt?
And you are suggesting to change both cam and crank sensor edges to the opposite of what they are currently? I was not clear based on the wording.
Also I posted a question to you above about the sectrig filter
"for the sectrig filter: is it the "sectrig maximum value" field you are referring to set at 250?"
only cam edge.
or
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=GenBoard%2FUnderDevelopment%2FFirmwareChanges
1.1.12 firmware:
"for missing tooth trigger (60-2, 36-1, etc...) with camsync, secignore=246 (which is 256-10) means that sectrig pulse coming at tooth 0-10 is ignored
this is useful if sectrig normally comes right before tooth0 (which is the pulse after the missing tooth), as in some BMW (sectrig pulse at the middle of the missing gap 6..12 crankdeg before tooth0 pulse; with HALL the chosen edge can help but not with VR sensor), but sometimes sectrig is delayed to slightly after tooth0 (either because of VVTI action, or cambelt sloppyness, or agressive clutch action). With this config it tolerates this and does not resync (no stumble)
another example: secignore=240 (which is 256-16) means that sectrig pulse coming at tooth 0-16 is ignored. Example values:
secignore=246..250 for wheel with 22 or more teeth,
secignore=250..253 for wheel with 10..11 teeth
secignore=253 for wheel with 7 teeth
secignore=254 might work for wheel with 5 teeth (or even less) but it's not recommended: sectrig pulse should NOT come near the primtrig missing tooth for any low toothcount wheel (or any homemade wheel, since those should be HALL anyway, and it's easy to satisfy this condition by choosing the right primtrig edge and sectrig edge)
secignore=255 means sectrig pulse is not ignored, no matter at what position it comes.
"
Ok, so I enabled the "Filter" setting, and set the Ignore secondary Trigger above 250
Does this look right?
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/secondary%20settings.png)
I took it for a spin with the settings above, and it was better but still errored just below 4000 rpm.
- so nice to finally hit a little boost, but still falling short :-\
I also have 0 diagnostic know how here, but my thought is to try 249 for the filter parameter. Is that a bad idea?
Did you put 1.1.12 firmware?
Try to put just show.
Do you have log of drive?
Can you change
1.2.12
I'm out of town until Sunday, so I can't verify firmware, but I did try to run the firmware updater the other day. I did not verify it's success, and it was rather quick and didn't report a success/fail status (that I noticed).
- I'm also assuming in advance that the 1.2.12 is the latest, and you're not suggesting that I put 'prior' firmware on it(?).
here is the latest log from the other day.
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-2013.05.12-17.26.16.vemslog
I'll verify the remaining details on Sunday, and take a run with the filter setting set as "Just show".
OK, I did the firmware update and made the recommended changes.
- If I re-run the updater it shows that I have 1.2.12 currently installed; however at the bottom of the application it shows Config file version 1.2.11. I edited and re-saved the config file but that did not update it to 1.2.12. Not sure if that's important.
Here is a shot of a log file, showing the area where the misfire happens. I put arrows showing the items "I" currently suspect as problematic. Is there anything else that stands out here?
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/trigger%20error.png)
Here is the entire logfile
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-2013.05.19-15.31.27.vemslog
What engine is it? Self made 60-2? Or?
Mostly you have less primary trigger error.
It is possible to configure 5 cyl engine in wasted spark mode. It would eliminate secondary trigger part with diagnostic purpose. Try to find that topic here.
Gints
The engine is an Audi AAN, and the 60-2 is from 034 Motorsport.
Ill look try the wasted spark setup, and determine if things improve.
If you have 5 cop(coils) than it's easy to set wasted spark.
BTW in new firmwares engine works without camsymc sensor after successive start. So you can try unplug cam sensor on working engine and do a test run.
Only if configured, I´m not confident in how it will work if the ignition outputs are sequential and the trigger refrence table doesn´t repeat itself.
I attempted the 2 scenarios:
1) setting up with wasted spark: I could not get this to work because it appears I need the logical, or stepper ignition output to make this work. I have 5 independent coils wired to 5 drivers (see image of the coils on page 2 of this thread). When I attempt to set the ignition values, I am limited to the 8 physical drivers; also the UI keeps resetting my 'cylinders' value (in engine setup) from "10" to "1" when saving. This seems to be a software problem, but maybe it's just that my current configuration is clashing with what I'm trying to do.
It seems like wasted spark won't be an option without some re-configuration of my entire ignition solution though.
2) I did start the car in the garage and then unplugged the secondary. There was no hesitation or stumble when I did this, so I proceeded to rev it up, and I still observed the "Less pr. trig" error when I reached that point. (This was done using my current 'best' configuration)
I did adjust the Crank sensor to be very close to the trigger wheel, at about 1.0 mm; this got me to 3800 RPMs before the trigger error, so a mild improvement. The fact that moving the sensor is the only thing that has shown any kind of change throughout all of this troubleshooting makes me think that VR sensor is the issue.
I ordered a new sensor, the type from an Audi/VW 1.8t so we'll see if that helps. It won't arrive until Wed unfortunately so more waiting...
Guess I'll work on another project in the meantime. ::)
How well is the sensor aligned to the trigger pattern?
If you are asking whether the sensor is centered with the trigger wheel edges, I carefully aligned it some time back, and re-verified while adjusting it yesterday.
Quote from: Marty on May 23, 2013, 03:31:36 PM
1) setting up with wasted spark: I could not get this to work because it appears I need the logical, or stepper ignition output to make this work. I have 5 independent coils wired to 5 drivers (see image of the coils on page 2 of this thread). When I attempt to set the ignition values, I am limited to the 8 physical drivers; also the UI keeps resetting my 'cylinders' value (in engine setup) from "10" to "1" when saving. This seems to be a software problem, but maybe it's just that my current configuration is clashing with what I'm trying to do.
It seems like wasted spark won't be an option without some re-configuration of my entire ignition solution though.
Save your current configuration.
Configure it as a 10-cyl engine.
Reference table: 0 12 24 36 48.
Real firing order: 1-2-4-5-3 . 10cyl WS-setup firing order: 1-5-2-3-4
Remember to put 2 as Injector divider.
Observe! This can't be done when using distributor.
Still having the same issue when attempting this. The software keeps resetting my # of cylinders from 10 to 1. This occurs each time I press the button to get to the next page, or burn my changes. I have not determined why, and I have not been able to find a way to work around it.
I received my VW 1.8t sensor yesterday and modified the bracket to make it fit. Now I'm waiting on delivery of a connector to wire it in. I hope the one I ordered fits, it's an AMP 1.5 connector and I chose it because nothing else I viewed resembled the shape of this thing at all! Spent about 3 hours looking at many different brands and product datasheets...
Once the wiring is done, I'm hoping to put this issue to rest finally! If not I'm going to cry, been trying to fix this issue for 2 years now it seems.
Well I am a happy man. The VW/Audi 1.8t sensor made all the difference. Just squeezed 5500 out in my garage without any hint of error.
Time to spin around the neighborhood!
Quote from: Marty on May 31, 2013, 07:13:04 PM
Still having the same issue when attempting this. The software keeps resetting my # of cylinders from 10 to 1. This occurs each time I press the button to get to the next page, or burn my changes. I have not determined why, and I have not been able to find a way to work around it.
Don't bring up the "Primary Trigger Visual" dialog, skip it completely. It has a bug and can't work with 8+ cylinder engines. Tell me how I know.