i own an e30 with an m20 turbo...had the car running for about a month and one day im driving the car and it starts sputtering. It turned off on me at a red light and coudnt getted started again. Brought it back to the shop and noticed the plugs were soaked in fuel...i tried a new set of plugs and still no start...its still covereing the new plugs in fuel...here a few log files maybe you guys can help
http://rapidshare.com/files/441107890/v3.3_n001009-2010.11.06-19.54.18.vemslog
http://rapidshare.com/files/441107960/v3.3_n001009-2011.01.05-15.45.19.vemslog
Hi
It look like your engine is running on 2 cylinders and lambda is out rang.
Check: Base Setup, Cyl separated spark delay make them all 0 degrees.
If you are using latest version of Vt then see columns gauge for individual power its pretty useful.
Peter
Vems.dk
Quote from: peter_jensen on January 06, 2011, 11:33:39 PM
Hi
It look like your engine is running on 2 cylinders and lambda is out rang.
Check: Base Setup, Cyl separated spark delay make them all 0 degrees.
If you are using latest version of Vt then see columns gauge for individual power its pretty useful.
Peter
Vems.dk
I'm not sure how it's only firing on 2cyl...I have spark on all 6 and also have fuel on all 6.
I set the cyl spark delay to 0 and still no start...it sounds like it wants to turn over but it doesn't. Spark plugs are def getting soaked still.
If the car was running ceck wiring, electronics for damage
Is not a software problem
Goodluck
This car was not tuned given the right calibration of the sensors, and the fuel settings don't match what I use on this type engine.
I think you are giving it way too much fuel. Just calculating from a cold start on my M20B20 at 0 Celsius you're up at 50% more fuel flow at 25 C, you should be seeing lower figures!!
Ever try pressing WOT shortly after starting to crank it? (That enables 'flood clear', no injector opening)
Your cranking enrichment table is excessive. You're using as much enrichment at +25 C as I'm using at 0 C, and about twice what I'm using at 0 C. That's a big difference.
I think it could be a wiring problem too. Could be a bad ground or poor injector flyback wiring.
Make sure basic things work first, before adding complications.
It's great that you have spark, disable/disconnect injectors (as mentioned earlier) and do a basic timing test, using a strobe light.
I would disconnect the injector connectors and use diodes with resistors to see if they flash or are lit all the time, in case you have damaged FET (injector drivers) that make them stay open all the time (flooding).
The MAP sensor was probably not calibrated well in the running log, and better in the last log but too high offset.
In the first running log the TPS was off too.
Use this config: Save as... (http://www.savarturbo.se/~mattias/motor/vems_data/vemscfg/mattias-m20-suggestion-2011-01-09.vemscfg)
Upload it and disconnect the injectors and do the basic tests above to make yourself more sure that the hardware/electronics are in shape.
Ok ill try everthing you had mentioned...But i think i found a problem that just stuck out to me. All those logs i did all look the same and i took them at a differant time and diff temp on log was taking outside and one inside one at a diff tps % and so forth.
Everytime i upload a new config file at the bottom where it shows the current running file it still shows the old file. So im thinking its not uploading the new config file that i want. I notice this happing after i tried to tune my car. It keeps saying my name and the serial number of my ecu eveytime instead of the new uploaded file. I know im uploading it correctly cause i never had this problem before i got my car tuned...im assumimg the tuner tough something that screwed everything up or maybe the firmware is messed up? Or the settings on the current file are wrong but regardless it still doesnt upload the file i want.
Are you hitting the burn button or using the config upload feature?
He is just confusing that VemsTune when connected to an ECU shows the name corresponding to the ECU serial nr, not a configuration file name.
The reason I'm saying that is because it wasn't like that before. I would upload a config file and it would show the file at the bottom. Now it doesn't do that anymore. I just did 3 logs back to back and every single log shows exactly the same graph,tps%,rpm. When I did those 3 logs I did one at 0% throttle one at 50% throttle and the last one at WOT. So why do the logs all read at 35.2% throttle same rpm same everything that's not right. I dont think it's logging right nor uploading any config file. I know it's logging cause the time and date on the log file is right but what the log says is not right. If I held the throttle position at WOT for 15 sec of cranking why does the log show only 35.2% throttle position? Something is not right there and the config file not showing at the bottom to me it's not right. I can upload 5 different files and before it would show each one with the name I gave it now it just says "CESAR 1009" everytime. I don't think that's right.
What version of VemsTune are you running?
Quote from: gunni on January 11, 2011, 12:25:57 AM
Are you hitting the burn button or using the config upload feature?
Yes I'am using the burn button. The config upload feature under the tool bar?
No the fire button below Boost control
Quote from: gunni on January 11, 2011, 11:56:00 PM
No the fire button below Boost control
Yes I do use that
And if you are connected to the ecu visibly seeing the engine run, can you not change any variable and then hit the burn button
and it will be updated next time you connect to the running ecu?
Quote from: mattias on January 12, 2011, 12:17:50 PM
Quote from: beefjurky69 on January 11, 2011, 11:31:03 PM
Quote from: mattias on January 11, 2011, 10:01:42 PM
What version of VemsTune are you running?
1.1.81
I didn't ask which firmware you were running.
Sorry...I'm running version 3.3. I haven't tried everything you had stated before nor your config file you gave me only because we got tons of snow the last couple days and haven't mad it to the shop. Should be able to do it today if not tomorrow.
that´s also not what was asked.
what is the vemstune program version , i.e the tuning software you are using?
It´s in the About part of the program.
Quote from: gunni on January 12, 2011, 03:50:04 PM
that´s also not what was asked.
what is the vemstune program version , i.e the tuning software you are using?
It´s in the About part of the program.
Ok I'm just very new to this Vems tune stuff...I'm running version 0.10.74 (2010.10.19)
Try this one
http://www.vems.hu/download/VemsTune/NIGHTLY/VemsTune-Install-2010-12-22-commModel.exe
Now you're on the right track, get the version gunni suggested installed on your tuning laptop. Also check that you have the latest driver for your USB serial port adapter, get it from the manufacturer internet site, check Windows 'device manager' for info on your adapter (you can reach it from ECU comm dialog in VemsTune).
I have no idea about your logging problem before, never ever happened to me with any version of VemsTune.
Im going to try all those suggestions and also check my injector drivers. I'll keep you guys posted on my luck tomorrow. Thanks alot guys I really appreciate your help.
How can I check what config file is currently uploaded to my ecu?
It doesn't work that way.
Whatever configuration your ECU uses at the moment has no "name".
You can save the current configuration to a file .. but that's not really what you're asking. I'm not sure what you're trying to do here.
Just go online with the ECU, then open a config to upload it's content and that will be what the ECU will use - but it won't ever refer to the file name of what you just uploaded.
Quote from: mattias on January 13, 2011, 10:01:33 PM
It doesn't work that way.
Whatever configuration your ECU uses at the moment has no "name".
You can save the current configuration to a file .. but that's not really what you're asking. I'm not sure what you're trying to do here.
Just go online with the ECU, then open a config to upload it's content and that will be what the ECU will use - but it won't ever refer to the file name of what you just uploaded.
I was just wondering if there was a way to check...like checking the current firmware...wanted to check if i can do that for the config file.
Im using the config you gave me and the new vemstune and still no start...Didnt have time to check the injector drivers but thats next to check. Its been to cold to check that stuff outside since my boss has to much shit inside and i cant bring my car in untill the weekend.
Ok so i installed new vems tune ,new config file that mattias gave me and i check my injector drivers with a noid light. light was blinking not just staying on o the drivers seem to be working finr. Still no start soubds like it wants to kick over but doesn't. Removed the plugs and still has some fuel on them not as much as before but enough. What would be the next thing to check or do? Im running 2 fuel pumps but it ran fine before so dont think thats the problem. I was thinking maybe timming jump but it started right up the night before it started acting up. How could it from just cruising not even going pass 4k but anything is possiable i guess.
Here's a picture of my most recent log...can't figure out why I can make it into a file with this new Vems tune.
(http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/Cesar85/e95065b2.jpg)
What do you mean, "can't make it into a file" ?
Once you press Alt-L it automatically saves log data to a file in your project directory.
Check the timing with a strobe light.
Also make sure the vibration damper (trigger wheel on it) is securely fastened. I've seen the woodruff key brake and timing will shift. You'll notice that if you take a screw driver down an ignition plug hole and see if you can relate to the cyl 1 piston being at TDC when the marks align on the damper and cam belt cover.
Ok I'll try that...now to start a log all I have to do is alt-L and to stop the log do the same?
Every time you press Alt-L you start a new log file. The icon for "LOG" turns green when it's logging, you can press the icon and it will turn red and stop logging.
Ok cool I'll check timing and make sure the Trigger wheel is good and tight.
So i had a few hrs to work on the car today...What i found was the crank pulley was rubbing on the water pump pulley. Seems like the crank pulley moved foward. So i rotated the crank pulley to check timing and it seems to be off. Not sure how that could had happened maybe the woodruff key came off? Didnt have time to pull everything apart def going to do tomorrow. Would the timing being off cause a valve to hit a piston? I will have everything apart tomorrow and see what the deal is.
Timing is on the money woodruff key is in tact still no start. Here are the latest log files...Going to buy a fuel pressure guage and check fuel pressure stock fuel pump might have gone bad.
http://rapidshare.com/files/443115721/v3.3_n001009-2011.01.17-13.43.49.vemslog
http://rapidshare.com/files/443115783/v3.3_n001009-2011.01.17-13.49.37.vemslog
You obviously have a larger MAP sensor than 250 kPa, as it reads about 79-80 kPa atmoshperic before you start cranking. Press F1, try the recommended values for the sensors without touching the offset (leave it at 0). The one that brings you nearest to 100 kPa is the one to use, correct the small error to your actual atmospheric pressure using the offset value.
Cranking pulsewidth looks more reasonable now, and you've taken such a big step down in cranking fuel that you're quite possibly on the low side now, instead of excessively rich like you were before. You can try changing the "crank VE%" up/down to affect the cranking to see what the engine really wants. Try playing with the throttle a bit when it doesn't want to start, it might be lacking some air and I can see you're trying that in the 2nd log file, but it could be flooding and you can try WOT (flood clear).
What worries me is that it doesn't even seem to cough or jerk a bit, the rpm is constant. Tried some starter gas?
Disconnect the intake pipe at the throttle to make that easier to test.
I'll try starting fluid and also do a fuel pressure test...I thought timing was the issue but it wasn't. I'll try calibrating the MAP to get it close to 100kpa and see if that help.
I tried starter fluid and still no go, i uped the starting fuel sounds better like it wants to start. I re calibrated the map to close to 100kpa with key on engine off and still no start.
Checked ignition timing with an old school timing light and im at 65 degrees advanced will cranking how is that possiable? I never changed anything with ignition timing thats why its weired. Here are a few more log files not sure if you can see the ignition timing through them. How can i set it back to normal i think its 30 degees at cranking?
If 65 degrees is actually what you're seeing then no wonder it never wants to start.
If you want to fix your timing problem, you need to offset 65-10 = 55 degrees more. You can do this by increasing the trigger tooth by (55/6) 9 teeth and then add a couple of degrees on the "TDC after the trigger" for fine tuning. But it doesn't make sense !!
All your trigger settings are, and should be, just like any BMW M20/M30 6 cyl with the stock 60-2 trigger. There is no reason to change the settings if the trigger wheel and sensor are mounted just like any standard engine of this type.
I still think your problem is mechanical, and could explain why it suddenly didn't want to run.
Cam to crank timing is on the money I must have checked that like 10 times. The OT mark on the back of the crank pulley lines up with the mark on the timing belt cover. The mark on the cam pulley lines upmwith the mark on the head next to the cam cover bolt hole. All line up perfect. I don't know what else mechanical it can be. I used an old school timing light and I turned the knob all the way up to 65 degrees before the missing tooth part of the crank pulley was lined up with the mark on the cam cover. Am I checking it right? Am I using the right marks?
Is there any way to change the ignition timing through Vems? That's what at 65 degree. Ignition timing is what's checked when using a timing light right? I just cant see anything else that's mechanically bad or off unless I'm missing something. I went through all the check lists you gave me and all is well.
There are some basics to understand here about EFI in general.
Are you confusing the "TDC after the trigger" setting (Primary Trigger settings dialog) with whatever your idea of "ignition timing" is ?
This value is usually around 60 degrees, or maybe 65-66 in your case if you used one step earlier trigger tooth (teeth being 6 degrees apart)
"Old school" or not, you seem to have used a "smart" timing light where you can set the advance delay in degrees. This type of light is very practical when you have no other real timing marks other than "top dead center", in your case the "OT" mark. You must set the dial on the timing light to exactly what the ECU is using at that moment to properly align the marks, in your case 10 degrees which is the cranking advance.
You seem to misunderstand what is happening and you're using wasted spark to further complicate the usage of the "smart" delay function of this device. This engine will ignite like a 2-stroke on every revolution making the "smart delay" compensate too little unless it also has a setting to switch between 4-stroke and 2-stroke (wasted spark for a 4-stroke). To simplify things it's good to know that when you set the dial to 0 degrees no delay at all will be used and it will work just like a "dumb" timing light and flash exactly when the spark actually occurs instead of delaying until the "top dead center" comes up.
Only if the cam belt slips will the cam gear and the crank damper OT marks not line up correctly. And if it has slipped it will also mean that you have bent valves and possibly destroyed the engine in the process.
Now, if the woodruf key is destroyed, the hub will most likely have rotated a bit and the marks on the cam gear and damper OT marks will still line up but you may have a mess inside the engine.
The only way to check the hub without taking things apart is to put a feeler down an ignition plug hole and verify that the damper OT mark still lines up with the timing belt cover.
Do this. Set the cranking advance to 0 degrees, and the timing light dial to 0 degrees as well. The "smart" timing light will now NOT delay the light at all and should light up the damper when the OT marks on the damper line up with the mark on the timing belt cover. Confirm it, and disable the injectors (pull connectors or fuse) while doing it unless you already did.
Where through Vems do I have to go to set my advance to 0?
Could I still have bent valves even if I have 150 psi of compression across the board?
I used a screw driver down the ignition hole to verify TDC and it lines up with the OT mark perfect.
The cranking advance can be set in the same dialog where you set "crank VE %", namely "Priming, cranking, afterstart" dialog.
This is probably more useful since the engine is not running and you can only crank it.
Or you can temporarily set it via the ignition lock dialog in the Tools menu, more useful with a running engine to quickly test different timing.
Ok so had a bmw tech (friend of mine) Check evrything over with me mechaniclly and everything seems to be fine. We switch around plug wires...like on coil 1 we flipped cyl 1 with cyl 6 on the coil poles. Got the car to start at WOT but ran like complete crap and would keep an idle. Flipped the other coils around but made no differance as per running better. Removed the MAP vacuum line to see if that help and it seemed to make a little differance but i dont know that's on the last log. Here are a few logs i took while doing all these things check them out and tell me what you think. I have a feeling ignition or injection timing is off. I also checked timing with the light at another wire and couldn't get the TDC to even come up but I might not even to using the light right since I'm running wasted spark. I don't know this is giving me grey hair lol.
http://rapidshare.com/files/443673858/v3.3_n001009-2011.01.20-19.38.52.vemslog
http://rapidshare.com/files/443673868/v3.3_n001009-2011.01.20-19.39.37.vemslog
http://rapidshare.com/files/443673880/v3.3_n001009-2011.01.20-19.39.58.vemslog
http://rapidshare.com/files/443673897/v3.3_n001009-2011.01.20-19.54.18.vemslog