Hello every body. I'm posting this for a friend. hopefully people can find some of this information useful for your own projects.
My friend Anthony bought this car with the m50 swap and 5 lug swap stuff already done. Here are some pictures.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/turbo4.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/turbo1.jpg)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/turbo2.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/IMG_9807.jpg)
After buying this car and trying to tune the MS1e 3.57 we decided to install a VEMS 3.6. Anthony contacted Gunni at GSTuning in Iceland and he built us a m50 to VEMS adapter! Here is the adapter installed in the car.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/IMG_9796.jpg)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/IMG_9795.jpg)
Gunni has gone above and beyond in helping us get this car running and tuned for daily driving! Here is a picture of the harness he built with our own grounding block.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/IMG_9793.jpg)
More of the VEMS harness
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/DSC_0233.jpg)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/DSC_0232.jpg)
This is how we have the vacuum lines ran.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/DSC_0229.jpg)
One of these lines run into the VEMS unit and the other one runs to the stock fuel pressure regulator.
Here is a picture of how we tapped into the compressor housing and ran this line to the boost solenoid and then back to the wastegate.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/DSC_0234.jpg)
Some engine bay pictures. Everything is very dirty and the harness will be pulled out and wrapped once we have all the accessories that we want up and running. We still need to install a fan relay for the vems to control instead of the fan running just from kl30 (key on).
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/IMG_9802.jpg)
This is the old manifold that was installed before we got the car. We have a different intake manifold installed, the vacuum hoses in the picture are no longer there.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/IMG_9798.jpg)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/IMG_9797.jpg)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/IMG_9801.jpg)
here are some of our settings that might be useful to some people. As of right now we do not have our secondary trigger enabled.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/widebandcontroller.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/warmup.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/tooth.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/tach.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/stepperidle.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/speedsensor.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/speeddensity.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/sparkdelay.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/secondarytrigger.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/revlimit.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/priming.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/primarytrigger.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/outputs.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/lamdatarget.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/injectortrim.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/injectorstaging.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/injectorsettings.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/injectorgroup.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/injector.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/igntionoutputtable.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/ignitionoutput.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/idlereference.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/idleignition.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/idlecontrol.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/idle.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/firmware.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/enginesetup.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/egoclosed.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/ecucalibrations.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/cranking.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/afterstart.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/accelscale.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/accel-1.png)
This is a stock M50 straight out of another car. All the motor pictures in this thread will be installed at a later date.
Thanks for posting that, nice clean looking car and installation.
Nice and tidy, I like.
I noted that the "idle control type" is set to 2stepper", while it should be "pwm". Obviously things work out anyway..
nice work!
using the stock temp sensors?
They should. ;D
Thanks guys but it has a long way to go. Mattias I was also told by Gunni to use PWM but for some reason when I select it I cant seem to control the idle.. I'm sure i'm doing something wrong I just dont know what it is. Since its been on stepper it idles good so I kinda just left it. All of the sensors on the car are stock for the m50 including. The idle valve is also stock.
I just dialled in the icv on the S50 , so i´ll send you a config with that info.
You can test the icv to see if it works by sending it forced duty cycle. This way you can find the maximum idle rpm you want and least rpm you want and set them as maximum and minimum duty cycle, then it will be stuck inbetween those. Then adjusting the DCref table to suit each engine speed while PID is still turned off. When you have that sorted you can enable pid and fine tune it.
you can crack open the throttle a couple of %´s (1-3%) while you do this and wind it back down while opening the icv more and more and maintaining idle.
Gunni most of what you say I have to read multiple times because I don't understand it clearly but thanks for taking the time to teach us.
what I´m saying is that start of by disconnecting the ICV.
Then crack open the throttle so that it idles off that.
Then reconnect the ICV and go into the Idle hardware settings, there set the minimum to 0% and max to 100%.
Then go over to Tools - ICV lock, set it to 0 and send, the engine is now idling of the throttle only. Then start by raising the number, you´ll probably not get the revs to rise until you go above 100 out of 255 which is 40% duty cycle, when that happens slacken of the throttle and raise the figure until the throttle is slackened all the way and the engine is idling at the right warm engine speed. Then raise the number until you get whatever cold engine idle speed you want, say 1300rpm. Now you have your maximum duty cycle,
Now you fill in the referenceDC table with numbers from the maximum to the minimum. Making max duty cycle to be the figure to use from coldest to about 40C° . Then lower the number from 40 to 70C . Now the engine should be able to start and idle at the right speed from cold to warm.
You can now raise the maximum DC and lower the min DC values and turn on the PID control, so that idle speed remains static while you turn on the lights, or A/C or whatever.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/DSC_0250.jpg)
This is the new acc fuse box that we will be using for VEMS powers, o2 heater, and anything else we might need to be fused from the car.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/DSC_0249.jpg)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/DSC_0242.jpg)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/DSC_0236.jpg)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/DSC_0233-1.jpg)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/DSC_0235-1.jpg)
After playing with the idle control valve settings here is how everything is now sitting.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/pwmreference.png)
This is the settings before we fine tuned everything.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/pwmidle_control.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/pwmidle.png)
This is how its set with a smooth idle. I wasn't sure how to set most of these settings so I kept changing everything back and forth until it all seemed stable. While the idle is smooth the vehicle stalls after a free rev from 3k rpm or when coming to a stop fairly fast and pressing in the clutch.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/pwmcontrol.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/pididle.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/idlechart.png)
For anyone that wanted to see all the IAC gauges while the car was idling.
The RPM gauge to the right of the desktop is a target rpm for the idle control valve to follow in case you are playing with your settings. I found it helpful.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/desktoprunning.png)
While driving the car on the freeway with the boost control set to 150kpa and didn't creap over the car started smoking really bad and miss firing. We drove the car back to the house and did a compression and leak down test. our compression numbers are 150-150-150-150-0-150. All the pressure is going into the crank case. This motor has 200,000+ miles on it but we still don't know if it was motor failure or something we caused. The motor will be pulled tomorrow and torn apart. >:(
Here is the config we were using if anyone wants to take a look. Also this is a stock m50b25 with no motor mods.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9VBY8SG5
here is a log thats small.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8QLODLPQ
You were of course datalogging everything ?
I thought we were logging. It turns out that we weren't. everytime we log or open the output windows Vemstune freezes and we have to restart the program and this time I forgot to push the log button. I messed up. We removed the engine just a minute ago and found out that cyc 5 was detonating and burned through the side of the piston and blew through the rings. The block seems doesn't seem to have any problems. At this point we are thinking about using more stock pistons and getting some new oem rings and rebuilding this motor with a .140mls head gasket and studs. What kind of reasonable power do you guys see out of that combination?
500hp flywheel should be optainable.
cirka 430whp or a bit more.
Did you see what the mixture had been around max boost prior?
Gunni I didn't see the mixture as a number, but I watched the o2 with the target at the bottom, I never saw this motor run lean for a second. It had to have ran lean though on number 5 to burn through the piston but that could have happened very quick. From just a riding stand point I thought the car was running really strong even at 150kpa which is only minimal boost isn't it? 7 psi if my math is right? We also kept having pressure pipe pop off at the turbo. Now that the motor is out we will also be installing the new manifold with EGT and a watercooled tial 44mm. At the same time we are changing all the boost pipes and welding on the new 50mm blow off valve. With only one knock sensor could we attach both knock sensor signal wires and put both in the input for VEMS? vems does only have one knock input right?
It can have two..
If you tune it right you´ll not need a knock sensor, almost no car tuned with VEMS uses it.
150kpa is 0.5bar boost or 0.5*14.5 = 7.25psi
I really want to get some time to work on the knock settings but just haven´t so far.
Thanks Gunni for your input. We are ordering new piston rings and will rebuild this motor and get the car back on the road asap. You thought that stock m50's can handle around 430whp. What kind of kpa would it take to get to that level?
250kpa or so, that's 22psi boost.
The motor is out of the car and torn down. cyl 5 is the one that suffered from detonation. The block looks ok and we will only run a ball hone through the cylinders and re ring the pistons. I hope to have this car back up and running tomorrow some time. I'll post some pictures up tonight.
EDIT: also where in your experience have you found the best place to mount the egt probe? I would like to get that welded in today.
Cyl 5 og 6 runner.
I would like to use a small pack of LEDs using a low amp output to drive the LEDs when a knock occurs. We have now lost 2 motors and are trying to add in extras to prevent this from happening again if at all possible. Has anyone else done this?
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/knockwarning.png)
Don´t rely on knock sensing to help you.
fabricate some det-cans and use them while tuning. After that you´ll not have knock.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=det-cans&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Something like this?
http://www.d-series.org/forums/diy-forum/95756-diy-electronic-detonation-detection-det-cans-under-25-dollars.html
Doesn´t have to be electronic.
If they are done right you should hear the engine nicely while in the car.
http://passionford.com/forum/technical-essay-archives/85339-how-i-made-my-det-cans.html
Great, i wanna try this :)
The rings came in wrong. We should have the correct rings tomorrow and the car should be back on the road by sunday. I have found a local dyno that will do 5 pulls for $75. I'll have pictures up soon.
The engine is back in the car. A new manifold was bought for the car and a different intercooler is being used. We are waiting for a welder and piping to build the new downpipe and charge piping.
Quote from: gunni on November 11, 2010, 10:31:27 PM
Don´t rely on knock sensing to help you.
fabricate some det-cans and use them while tuning. After that you´ll not have knock.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=det-cans&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
There is no guarantee: overheated engine, leaner due pump or fuel deficient problems, worse fuel. Any of these could lead to detonation which was not experienced at tuning.
True, but given that you tune the engine at more the one state (air temp, coolant temp) and so on your air temp ignition correction table will take care of such scenarios and air temp fuel compensation
GintsK- your right I wouldn't expect a gaurantee on something like this.
Gunni- Gunni you've been a big help thus far and I hope you keep your opions coming.
speaking of the air temp compensation table, since Vegas is only about 60 degrees right now and 105 in the summer would you recommend a little dyno time to correct for ambient temp swings like that? I think I'll do it anyway. While at the dyno I'm going to try mattaias's idea about doing a pull with and without the air filter to see what kind of restriction if any exists.
Dyno time is of great help with tuning, and using only the least amount of advance required ,
I´d say that you are not going to be det limited below 1.0bar or so. Depending on intercooler setup and ambient air temps.
i'll take some pictures as soon as we start building the pipes and post everything up including my dyno sheets and logs. I hope to have all the pipe I need within a few more days.
On the 14th of this month I will also be starting a new project thread for a n/a 91 318 with a m42.
The car is now up and running again but I have a quick question about the fuel pump. I'm running 1.1.81. When the car is running and I turn it off the pump keeps running and won't shut off unless I turn the key on and wait 3 seconds. Then I can turn the car off and the fuel pump turns off.
any ideas? heres my fuel pump settings. Updates will come in the next few days.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/fuelpump.png)
First I would try moving the fuel pump solenoid ground to a free ignition output and see if that makes any difference. The P259 has problems with strong solenoids and you could simply be seeing it bleed through enough current to hold the solenoid closed, and if it does it's about to die (short-circuit to ground).
After that I would double-check all the wiring, sounds like you could have current bleeding through somewhere.
Also, set the fuel pump off delay to 1 sec or less, no need for more.
Thanks mattias i'll do that tonight. If its about to die do I just order up a new p259 chip?
If it´s not dead it won´t die if you stop using it for this type of relay.
I´ve not had this problem with M20 or M50 Bosch relays. so might want to have a quick look at the wiring.
I found the problem. Some how the Vanos soleniod was keeping the vems and relays turned on. Once I unplugged the vanos everything is working like it should. I'll spend some time figuring the vanos problem out later.
Right now I have a misfire on cylinder 1 to figure out.
A new problem came up. While driving the car the wiring to the number one coil on the primary side was burned and shorted the ignition coil signal wire to ground and burn the board internally and smoked the driver. I've ordered the drivers and should be here in a few weeks.
If its not one problem its another and this a very dumb problem to have.
I'll be moving around the wires so that the coils get first priority and the car runs with no misfires.
Gunni, on this harness we got from you the Vanos control is hooked up the the EC18 pin 5 Stepper control. Should that be hooked up to a stronger driver like one of the ignition or injector drivers?
I switched around some of my ignition drivers on the 36 pin connector. The extra ignition driver that Gunni wired up for us is now switched for my burned driver and everything is up and running. I will drive this car around a little tonight and check the logs.
The stepper should be able to handle the vanos actuation as it´s only a little solenoid being opened and closed, but if you can measure the current then that might be a good idea to make sure it´s not attempting to out do the stepper chip, if it is, then you need to move the output.
ok i'll give that a try thanks.
How do I zoom out or shrink down the gauges so that I can see them all in this screen? I tried to go to the edit mode but I only saw that I could move the gauges around not shrink them.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/VEtune.png)
You can't miss the directions on how to resize and move, when you enter edit mode there is a window telling you how to. Watch this video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK7spJtnIAgthe gauges.
When finished with the editing you can export the layout to an XML file for later importing into new VemsTune releases.
I would like to build one of these circuits to add in ALS, variable boost control (got the idea from Gunni), and shiftcut. The only thing I was wondering about is some type of cross talk through circuits which would confuse the VEMS? this is v3.6 that i'm using. I think the first circuit is the one that should do the job nicely. I will use a plug connector to disconnect the harness shown from the vems harness itself.
Any input or ideas about this?
For the ALS can I use a switch based off of a timed pedal accel and clutch position like what AEM standalones have?
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/DevinEC2.png)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/DevinEC.png)
I´ve always used a variable 4k8ohm resistor for boost control.
here are the results after our dyno tuning session today.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/photo.jpg)
This car was ran on a boost spring only and ran at 168kpa or 10psi roughly. We were having some problems with the boost controller. Mainly using the incorrect tubing that melted and stopped us from using the boost controller. I was told by the tuner to use 3an braided line. What does everyone else use? It will probably be awhile before we hit the dyno again and dial in the boost controller but we'll see. I'm posting my before config and after config files. If anyone sees anything that can be improved please speak up.
http://rapidshare.com/files/450708992/startingpoint.vemscfg
http://rapidshare.com/files/450709002/Endingpoint.vemscfg
Your warmup enrichment table is all wrong, you should have 100% with a hot engine - not 120%.
I'm not sure of the consequences, but if you remove this you can be sure that the VE table needs a re-tune.
Do you need after start enrichment on a hot engine?
Lambda target 1.08 at idle is rarely a good idea, I would use 1.0.
The MAT/TPS ignition retard is quite heavy, make sure it's not doing anything during normal conditions. 4 degrees at 50C is significant. You're not really going to get into trouble until it's hotter. Also the MAT/TPS enrichment table helps you out there.
The high value on injector effective rampup is causing the low VE values at idle, and non-linear behaviour. Lowering to between 0 to 300 ms will make it easier to tune low load. Raise injector voltage compensation to 500 us, works better for deadtime.
You should also set "injector PWM peak time" to 25.5 ms (max), just to avoid any confusion.
Thanks Mattias,
Everything you pointed out I didn't even notice. I'll leave the warmup alone until we hit the dyno again.
As for the tuner I was telling him how strong the exhaust smell was at lambda and he said that it wouldn't hurt anything to lean it out as long as it doesn't misfire. Do you think it could harm anything?
The car idles very well.
I don't know how the MAT/TPS table should look but he didn't change it since he isn't sure how the car would react going from yesterdays temp of 60 degrees to augusts high of 110F. He said in a few weeks when we come back he will spend more time but all the little things he didn't change. It was a free tune on the dyno so I can't complain.
I haven't played with the injector ramp up time at all. I'll read the help menu and go from there. Would I have to retune the 100kpa plus part of the ve table if i change the injector ramp up angle?
I also will be hooking up Vanos next time around.
After we left the dyno and the car was running great we got on the freeway to head home and there was a intake back fire and it blew off the charge pipe right at the throttle body. Of course the laptop wasn't logging either. Isn't the only thing that can cause a intake back fire like that a lean condition?
Also Mattias do you have the need for bmw factory scan equipment?
I'm not sure how the tuner could see that lambda 1.08 was better than lambda 1.0. The engine should pull a stronger vacuum and have a stronger idle at 1.0. Whatever, there is no load so it's not harmful.
Like I said about the rampup, it will only affect low load and idle where the pulsewidth is short and the rampup plays a major part. Once you find the correct value the VE table will be flatter and not have a "pit" towards idle.
I can't tell you what caused the back-fire, but a datalog of daily driving and WOT runs from very low rpm in 3rd or 4th gear would reveal if the engine is tuned properly.
I do not read about particular settings. But I had cases when I put somewhat like 1.1 for idle in lambda table: for cams with long overlap. Simply then wbo2 do not represent real mixture. Using 1 or 0.9 then waste fuel and foil plugs.
Gints
Quote from: gunni on November 01, 2010, 07:58:35 PM
I just dialled in the icv on the S50 , so i´ll send you a config with that info.
You can test the icv to see if it works by sending it forced duty cycle. This way you can find the maximum idle rpm you want and least rpm you want and set them as maximum and minimum duty cycle, then it will be stuck inbetween those. Then adjusting the DCref table to suit each engine speed while PID is still turned off. When you have that sorted you can enable pid and fine tune it.
you can crack open the throttle a couple of %´s (1-3%) while you do this and wind it back down while opening the icv more and more and maintaining idle.
When will PID be turned on? (My M20 is only running from the ref table.)
Quote from: DMS on March 08, 2011, 03:14:10 PM
Quote from: gunni on November 01, 2010, 07:58:35 PMThen adjusting the DCref table to suit each engine speed while PID is still turned off. When you have that sorted you can enable pid and fine tune it.
When will PID be turned on? (My M20 is only running from the ref table.)
You quoted the answer from Gunni.. What are you having trouble with? (you can bring this to another thread)
Since we melted the boost solenoid tubing on the dyno the car is only running on a 10psi spring.
I now have two things to do next. 1 is move the boost solenoid to a different location. I'm going to use two feet of brake line tubing to run along the bottom of the frame rail to prevent anymore melting and switch my vacuum line to the braided lines that come on 335 wastegates since I have that stuff hanging out in the garage. the second is change the wiring on my PnP harness to use a extra ignition driver to drive my vanos unit. Last week I got my new transistors in and I soldered one into my vems the other night but haven't checked its operation yet.
I am still having trouble with my load sites around 2000 rpm and 60kpa. I have a bad misfire when only 1-3% tps position is saw by the vems. I will be retuning the VE table after taking Mattias's advice of changing my injector ramp up to 300us and adjusting my warmup to 0 after 80C. I will also be turning on vanos at 2500-+. I need to lookup the vanos on and off timing of stock tables and i'll just copy them in to vems. Once the car is up and running we hope to have the car safely tuned to 420lbs at the wheels with a flat torque curve up top.
Can someone take a look at these logs files. I have a miss fire around 2200 with only slight throttle. I've moved around some of the throttle accel enrichments but I can't seem to get it to go away.
http://www.box.net/shared/g95t79hke9
http://www.box.net/shared/or7l3gnxhr
On the log it shows that its going lean but I think its a rich misfire.
You can use high gears to map the low kPa rows at 1000-3000 rpm. Very easy to modulate throttle to maintain a steady kPa and sweep up the rpms slowly, use a gear high enough to make the engine accelerate slowly at that intake pressure.
Definately too much acc enrichment, decrease the dot scale table. In fact remove acc enrichment until you've made a good base VE map.
Use WOT in 5th gear to accurately map 100 kPa line from 1000 rpm, that will fix some desire to overcompensate acc enrichment.
Drag'n'drop my config over your acc enrichment tables, warmup enrichment table, ..
Increase number of afterstart cycles for cold engine. Increase warmup scaling at 100 kPa, if you care for it.
Lower your injector effective rampup (to 0 or 200-300 at most) and increase your battery compensation to 500, that will fix the "hole" in your VE map at idle which you have created to compensate for too high values in the injector rampup.
I'll do it tomorrow morning and report back. When I adjusted injector ramp up to 300 at what kpa or rpm does the table not need to be adjusted anymore? up to 100kpa or so?
I'm not sure if that makes since to you. There aren't any side notes or anything under these little menus when pressing f1. I hope that with some new versions of vemstune these things start to get filled in for the rockies like myself.
Only the low load will need tuning = low pulsewidth.
Mattias I did everything you said on my config and this car was running great! right up till my vacuum lines to the wastegate melted. It was on my stuff to fix list anyway. The dead spot is gone and the car is smooth all over the low end.
I'll fix it in the next few days.
UPDATE: 6/5/11
I've installed my boost controller. The lines that Im using are a little long so i'll be buying the crimping tool and some new end fittings to make everything fit exact.
I've ran into a problem while testing the boost controller before road testing. It seems that i'm not getting ground out of my vems while switch testing. I changed the outputs and the wires from EC36-pin 11 and 12 but can't seem to get ground out of either of those pins. I'm not sure if my previous driver problem is causing this problem or not. Anyone have a good idea how to trace this back instead of pulling the vems apart and looking?
Can I use a different output besides a injector output?
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/IMG_0102.jpg)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/IMG_0101.jpg)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad7/sirdragger/turbo/IMG_0083.jpg)
You can use an ignition output, that´ll work fine.
I don't have any extra injector drivers. 2 are being used by the idle valve and 6 are the injectors. 6 ignition drivers are being used but the 2 extras don't work for some reason. would a p259 chip fry if I used that to drive the boost solenoid? I still need a vanos driver at some point also.
Maybe I should blend 6 cylinder into 3 drivers and not run full sequential since I haven't been using it and use the extras for the boost solenoid and vanos solenoid.
Gunni have you made any progress on cam sink?
If the solenoid have more then 12 ohm resistance, you could use one of the stepper outputs. The stepper outputs can handle 1A.
Quote from: DevInAz on June 08, 2011, 03:34:12 AM
I don't have any extra injector drivers. 2 are being used by the idle valve and 6 are the injectors. 6 ignition drivers are being used but the 2 extras don't work for some reason. would a p259 chip fry if I used that to drive the boost solenoid? I still need a vanos driver at some point also.
Maybe I should blend 6 cylinder into 3 drivers and not run full sequential since I haven't been using it and use the extras for the boost solenoid and vanos solenoid.
Gunni have you made any progress on cam sink?
There is one M50B28 running full camsync without issues and works like a charm. To be honest the gains aren´t that influencial.
Im running several m50b25´s with camsync.
Quote from: Ascona 400 on June 08, 2011, 09:21:00 AM
If the solenoid have more then 12 ohm resistance, you could use one of the stepper outputs. The stepper outputs can handle 1A.
Thanks! i'll check the resistance of my solenoid.
Quote from: DevInAz on March 16, 2011, 08:30:16 PM
Can someone take a look at these logs files. I have a miss fire around 2200 with only slight throttle. I've moved around some of the throttle accel enrichments but I can't seem to get it to go away.
http://www.box.net/shared/g95t79hke9
http://www.box.net/shared/or7l3gnxhr
On the log it shows that its going lean but I think its a rich misfire.
Hi, don't know if you have this problem solved, but i checked your log, and found something that could cause this.
You have your "TPS value for idle threshold" = 3 , meaning that when your TPS is <= 3% your car tries to idle, because you have " Idle ignition advance" enable it allows the ecu to retard your ignition up to 8 degrees.
So when your are driving at 2000 RPM but with the TPS <= 3% some times your ignition gets lowered from 17 deg. to 9 deg. , because the ECU wants to idle. (you can see this ignition bumps in the log )
I would drop the "TPS value for idle threshold" to 0, and check how it goes.
Hope it helps, tell us if this helped, good luck.
Best Regards.
Sérgio Fernandes
Thanks Sergio for the tip! Mattias solved my problem awhile ago and it was due to my injector ramp up angle but thanks. I'll play with that and check it out
UPDATE:
started work on the car again. Its running good but we still have the problem with the boost controller. We removed the 10psi spring and put in a 5.4psi spring. We disconnected the boost controller from the wastegate and ran the car while logging.
- Logging isn't working. The button is green and i've checked all the folders. for some reason when we push log nothing gets recorded. We are running 1.1.81 firmware in this car and the Latest version of vems. I went to my 745 and tried again and still found no logs get recorded. its something with my computer but I'm not sure what it is.
- Logging problem was my laptop. Everything worked but no logs were being recorded. Switched laptops and everything works great.
Do a search on your complete hard drive for the logs.
*.vemslog
It must be in there somewhere.
I did the search and it found 10 logs but they were all for march-2 of this year when we were at the dyno. All the new logs haven't been recorded. I'm going to try and uninstall vems and reload it to see if that does anything.
FIX - uninstalled VEMS then reinstalled with the latestest version. Now my original laptop is working again.
Why am I getting this third trigger error? I've looked at every menu i'm pretty sure and didn't see anything about this..
Also I have my second trigger disabled so why is the min max second trigger angle error on the screen? I've changed it to 1 and 360 like i've seen in other config but it didn't work.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/checkscreen.png)
I'm starting to get somewhere with my boost control. I have the power running through a fuse off the ignition switch and the ground coming from a ignition driver on pin 24. If I disable pin 24 and hook up my soleniod I still have a ground coming through the VEMS which is keeping my solenoid turned on. If I turn the solenoid on in vemstune then my solenoid is pulsing on and off very fast even with the engine off. I know for sure I don't have any outputs crossed but I'm still getting a ground when I shouldn't be. Do I have another internal problem with my VEMS? somehow I already killed 2 ignition drivers internally in the processor. I'll measure the resistance of my solenoid right now.
Boost soleniod is now on stepper D. I grounded one side out where all the VEMS grounds are then attached the other pin to stepper D. I can test the solenoid on and off and it works just fine. One of my problems was I had my P setting on 200 and the I and D on 0 so the solenoid kept pulsing on and off. I've raised my fuel cut to 200 kpa and ran the car to see if my solenoid would hold the boost at 140kpa but it didn't. The boost still shot up to 200 and hit the fuel cut. I'll post up photos of my logs and pictures of my boost controller menus to see if someone spots a mistake with something. I wish that the boost controller pages had the F1 menus filled in.
Here are some logs. Does anyone know how to tell in the log viewer if the boost solenoid is being activated?
http://www.box.net/shared/4mm802t26qr8zpq0gfze
http://www.box.net/shared/4faxvxzd7qt2qcrsis4r
http://www.box.net/shared/gsqdtjzxiya75k281rju
Here are pictures of my settings. I have something set wrong because it always over boosts till the fuel cut is hit.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/boostPID.png)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/TPScurve.png)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/boosttarget.png)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/boostREF.png)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/boostalternate.png)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Outputchannels.png)
If I switch the output channels to test my boost solenoid is activated on and off perfectly. When the solenoid is off the pressure is on top of the wastegate diaphram and when the solenoid is switched on the pressure is pushing on the button of the diaphram to open the wastegate. I'm sure this problem has to do with my VEMS settings.
You should invert the functionality of the valve if you want to get anywhere. I would say your problem is how you hooked up the solenoid, not some configuration error. More dutycycle should raise the boost, not the other way around.
Thank you i'll try that tomorrow and report back.
I inverted the sensor like you suggested Mattias but it was a no go. It makes way more boost now then it did before. I have removed the boost controller and put in a 5psi spring and drove the car around. It holds the correct boost the entire time so its not a wastegate issue.
I'm going to get working on it again tomorrow.
Quote from: DevInAz on September 16, 2011, 11:20:56 PM
When the solenoid is off the pressure is on top of the wastegate diaphram and when the solenoid is switched on the pressure is pushing on the button of the diaphram to open the wastegate. I'm sure this problem has to do with my VEMS settings.
Remove the line to the top of the wastegate and it should work much better. I've never had good results running both ports on the wastegate from the same valve. I've actually run into the same problem as you and removing the top port line fixed it. It was on the dyno, so I didn't investigate much.
It's a lot more complex to regulate boost that way, not sure you can use only a ref dc curve alone - PID most likely. I haven't had luck either which is why I suggested hooking it up differently. I would use the single solenoid to apply boost to the top port, and maybe add a second valve to the bottom port just to get quicker spool (bleeding of all boost until a set pressure, not effective on many setups especially with a strong/correct spring pressure).
The valve that i'm using right now switches 1 of my 2 ports on while the other is switched off. How its setup right now is while the solenoid is off boost flows through the valve and is applied to the top of the gate. At 145kpa where I have my boost target set the valve switches from the top port to the side port which should open the wastegate at 145kpa only its not.
jrussell - at this point i'll try anything to see if something changes.
I'll post a picture of my log in a minute.
I´d reccomend you change your boost line arrangement.
the constant boost line should be connected to side or bottom of the wastegate so that any boost lifts the valve. This is then totally seperated from the valve, Y connection a bit away from the solenoid would work nicely.
The top part should be connected to the solenoid so that when you start opening the solenoid it bleeds pressure to the top port pushing down on the valve simulating a stiffer spring. I.e the other part of the Y is feed into the solenoid and to atmosphere. By applying duty cycle the pressure stops going to atmosphere as much and starts pushing on the wastegate valve. This way has worked very well for me in the past.
It is not possible to run both chambers form one 3-port solenoid with no additional orifices to atmosphere. It is joke! It might be some control at initial boost phase. But after that pressurized chambers has nowhere to bleed pressure. Means further control is not possible.
Yes it can be done with 4-port solenoid. Or two solenoids with opposite tubing connection. I tried second for oversized 60mm W-gate - works with no issues. With parallel electrical connection. PID.
Gints
Thank you all! ;D I will fix this issue tomorrow and update everything.
This is the new setup for my boost controller. I drilled and taped another line just for the lift part of the wastegate. The Solenoid now has one open port and one port that goes to the top of the valve. Here are some pictures.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/C233C814-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/212BB8EA-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/D7A1B6B6-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/BEE69817-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/F27330D8-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/60refdc.png)
This log is with my refdc at 60.
I've run into yet another problem. The boost control problem was that I had the refDC way too high. Anyway my new problem is a misfire at 4k rpm and 135kpa. I've checked and changed my spark plugs to no avail. I've pulled timing out of my ignition map and moved my VE table back and forth trying to find the problem.
I previously burned two of my ignition drivers so I wired up all the cylinders in pairs of two. Every part of the map runs great except for the 120+kpa parts of the map. I've racked my brain over this and can't figure it out.
http://www.box.net/shared/t95e1ohbsxk9a74h9nky
Here is a highlighted part of the map. The problem is there but the log doesn't really show anything. All I can say is it seems like a rev limiter but its not.
Hopefully someone can shed some light on something i'm not thinking about. Maybe a setting after whiching to 3 ignition drivers? i'm not sure.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/misfirelog-1.png)
Can you not replace your dead ignition drivers or use the two remaining ones?
Are you able to drive at higher boost at higher rpms without any problems?
I bought new drivers and soldered them in but they still don't work. We think the processor is damaged.
Nothing over 4k and 130kpa works. Everytime I hit the gas and it goes beyond both of those two parts of the map at the same time the vehicle feels like its misfiring badly but looking at the log it doesn't show anything. I've tried looking at all the individual fuel injectors but nothing stands out.
we changed the number of ignition drivers back to six and that didn't fix anything. What ever it is its very consistent above both of those two values. I will continue looking but was hoping someone would see something in a log that I didn't know about.
Most probably processor aren't damaged: between IGBT and ATmega there is another chip. Have you LCD? Did you use P259 outputs? Those are driven by same processor pins/resources.
Try to change that chip. 74HC259D.
Hey GintsK,
I don't have an LCD. I was using ignition drivers when they burnt out. The chip 74HC259D controls the ignition drivers? I can order up one of those.
That would fix one of my problems but not this studder that i'm getting. I'm going to put a fuel pressure gauge on it and see if its fuel related at all.
I'll update tomorrow.
you drive two coils with one output?
Quote from: MWfire on November 05, 2011, 05:42:20 PM
you drive two coils with one output?
yes I am. I have 6 coils on plugs and use 3 ignition drivers in total. Each driver controls 2 coils. I would love to fix the driver issue.
I figured out the misfire. It was a bad fuel filter. I put a fuel gauge on it and it held 45 psi consistently but wasnt getting flow.
Oh, no!.... [about driving coils]. This is not good idea!
Are you sure about fuel as misfire cause? IIRC your datalogs didn't showed lean. Or pressure loss was compensated in VE map?
Quote from: DevInAz on November 07, 2011, 04:06:48 AM
Quote from: MWfire on November 05, 2011, 05:42:20 PM
you drive two coils with one output?
yes I am. I have 6 coils on plugs and use 3 ignition drivers in total. Each driver controls 2 coils. I would love to fix the driver issue.
I figured out the misfire. It was a bad fuel filter. I put a fuel gauge on it and it held 45 psi consistently but wasnt getting flow.
That is very wrong way. Every coil needs own driver.
You are lucky that you can drive till 0.3bar of boost.
The fuel filter was deffinatly the problem. I've ran the car again and my original problem is all gone and the car is running great.
I would love to fix the ignition coil problem but i'm not sure what to do. I don't want to send in my VEMS for repair because the car will be down and we are daily driving it right now.
If all I need to do is order the chip i'm all for that. This one - 74HC259D
This car is now gone and won't be updated again.