Finally have my car running well enough to screw with it again!
Seeing as the upgrades from my 1.0.73 to 1.1.x are pretty significant, I like to tinker, and I have been told multiple times to upgrade by the guy who got me into VEMS. So I think it is time to upgrade, but I have a few questions.
First off, what version would you guys recommend? and what is the best way to get there, with my current settings, maps etc? Also, what will I have to set up from scratch? I would assume there is a way to get my Maps, output settings and some of the basic settings pulled right over, but I have been told that Acceleration settings, and some idle settings I would have to set up. Thats all fine, I just want to know what I will need to do before I do it.
Thanks,
Jim
First is save your config using vemstune.
Also download mattias´s config and use that to fill in the blanks you´ll get.
To fill in a specific window of information just drag´n drop his file on the window and the screen will update with those details.
I tried this once last summer. Then VEMSTune could not read my 1.0.73 firmware so I couldn't get my config off it. However, I may have just missed something...
Jim
So the new versions of VEMSTune work with 1.0.73 which is cool. However, there were a few glitches with that. The PW gauge was reporting over double my maximum PW while driving (which behaved normally). The Duty Cycle gauge reflected this with a duty ration over 100%. Also the ignition advance gauge was totally off, reporting a value of -53° at idle...
At any rate, I got home from work and tried upgrading the firmware (1.1.74), which seemed to go just fine. The I loaded up my old .vemscfg from 1.0.73. There were a few warnings about missing constants and tables that I ignored for the time. Then I went back and tried to fill them all in using Mattias's config file. I am pretty sure I got everything.
Then I went to start the car, and I was getting some nasty backfire and it was shitty, wouldn't start. I opened up the ignition table and noticed an extra column in front. It was for a huge rpm (on the order of 14k) and had very large advances in the bins. So I reimported that table from my 0.73 config file, and all was well, at least for my table.
Try to start again and it BARLEY starts. Pulling a vacuum of 80-90 an rpm down around 500-700 and holy god did it STINK of gas. So I then checked out the VE table and all the basic settings to make sure everything was in order (and I did remove the fuses before upgrading, so the engine wasn't flooded). Try again, same thing. Played with the ignition advance a bit, same thing. Turned off all the enrichments I could see, same thing.
Unfortunately this car needed to run in the morning, so I had to stop here (only about an hour of playing with it) and revert back to 0.73 inorder to have a working car. I needed to cut early as I have had firmware upgrades go south before due to my computers ability to turn itself off arbitrarily and I wanted to make sure there would be time to get everything going. Fortunately the downgrade went fine. Then I uploaded my 0.73 .vemscfg and the car fired right up and worked just as it did before.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Jim
Jim: Never ever do such an upgrade without confirming with a strobe light that the ignition fires where and when it should. You have to set up the "trigger tooth reference table".
The new VemsTune is not supposed to be used to tune and work with 1.0.73, only use it to upgrade.
Yes, think of it as a new install that you have some of the settings for.
ok, well that was kind of the point of this thread. What will I need to set up that I cannot pull from my previous config or mattias' config?
Jim
Basically you need to do some fine adjustments, but it's a must to setup the "trigger tooth reference table" and a check-up of the primary trigger settings.
Ok, tried again today and it worked!
Spot on with the Trigger tooth Reference Table. Car starts and runs just fine. My idle instantly got better (although not perfect). It also made the IAC int value actually change properly. In 0.73 it would stop changing about 2sec after entering idle (under 1500rpm, 0tps). Now it continues to change with oscillations, which made it much easier to tune. That with the actual IAC duty cycle was very nice. Idle is MUCH better now, although not quite perfect. That was done in about a hundredth of the time I spent in 0.73 tuning idle, so I am happy about that.
Also, can someone explain the new accel enrichment tables? (The last 3 under the Tuning menu). As well as the purpose of the Trigger Tooth Ref Table...
Thanks,
Jim
So I just had one of those, oh shit I'm an idiot moments... I have been having some odd hesitation problems, stalling at idle when I shouldn't and general shitty running until the car is under load, when it starts to run good. I had a long drive in traffic so I was just thinking about stuff and I realized I am using a dial back timing light on a wasted spark ignition system so my numbers will be double what they actually are... Might explain my idle issues, seeing as I am idling at something around 2-6° instead of the 4-12° I thought I was... Also might explain why coming off of idle sucks so much... Dont have the car for the weekend, but I will make the adjustments later and see what happens.
Another odd thing, that I think is unrelated to timing and new in 1.74 for me, is a fuel cut at 20% tps. It is exceptionally annoying when I am slowing down/trying to go slow as above 20% is more than I want, then I hit a hard shut off and the car jerks around a bit. However, I checked my idle settings (IACV and spark)and it is enabled at 1% tps so I have no idea what is causing this, any ideas?
Thanks,
Jim
Check your overrun fuelcut settings.
Well, checked my overrun settings, 1500rpm for both, with a pressure of 15kPa. It should be above/below 1500 and dependent on my tps settings for idle.
Jim
Having the two at the same value will cause issues.
Set cut to 2000, resume to 1500 rpm to begin with. Tune those later according to your driving habits.
If you ask some people, you should set cut to 25500 rpm so it never cuts fuel from releasing the throttle - that lets you tune the lowest load sites in the table.
I turned off over run fuel cut and bloody hell, did I get some awsome backfires on over run :D Tuning the VE table ended up with very low numbers in the mid to high rpm, obviously deep vacuum needs much less fuel (Alpha N)
Bottom 'over run' line on the VE table is still important for a good transition to idle without stalling, especialy if EGO is pulling out loads of fuel Either set EGo off on lower rpm over run or set VE table leaner to start with. It took me some considerable time to work that one out.
You can use the minimum MAP value to turn off EGO below 30-40 kPa as that is usually the region where you have released the throttle and doing engine breaking.
Given that you run Alpha-N many might not consider that you can still use the MAP sensor for this, many functions still rely on it.
I am not running alpha-n.
At any rate, adjusting my timing helped most of my hesitation, particularly coming off idle. However, I still have a fuel cut at 20%... My pw goes directly to zero when I cross it going down the rpm... It's sort of hard to explain, so I'll take a video of it. I changed my overrun settings as well. Anything else that would cut fuel?
Jim
Quote from: Benzmac16v on June 21, 2010, 02:55:38 PMI am not running alpha-n.
Huh. Must've mis-read that somewhere.
A lot better than anything else is posting an actual log file.
Zip it and upload it somewhere, vems.hu has a file upload facility.
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=FileArea
Here it is.
http://www.rpi.edu/~smithj16/VEMS/v3.3_n001612-2010.06.22-13.11.48.vemslog
The problem is apparent between 4:03 and 4:24
Thanks,
Jim
My car is a plenum based N/A 4 banger. It is a 1985 190E 2.3-16v, and outside of the ECU VEMS and needed components for VEMS it is basically stock.
Also, another kind of unrelated question. I noticed in VEMS tune a wheel speed sensor available, can I just tap into an ABS sensor for this?
Jim
If you got a paper with your ECU with pin designations for the EC18 connector that said "wheelspeed input" on pin 8, then you can connect a sensor there. I'm not sure on the specifics, but it works the best with Hall type sensors.
Your trigger settings are strange, you're running WAY too much timing for a N/A 16v high c/r engine, and your lambda table doesn't make much sense.
You need to disable input channels that you don't use.
Trigger edge on a VR/inductive sensor is always rising, unless you know what you're doing.
I fixed most of that and you can use this configuration file:
http://media.vems.se/mattias/benz-v3.3_n001612-2010.06.24-12.38.57.vemscfg
When using my config, disable the injectors and strobe the ignition again to make sure you are synched correctly.
At least take a look at the config..
I was playing with it yesterday and noticed the ignition map being waay off. That was the map that came with the ECU and because I didn't have the tools to play with ignition timing (det cans, knock sensor...) I figured it was a conservative table. Going back to it now (I have learned quite a bit since getting VEMS which was more or less the idea behind it) it is quite obviously very advanced. I dropped it quite a bit yesterday and general drivability went waaay up.
As far as the lambda map, that was also stock with the ECU.
My hall sensor is a sink to ground sensor, http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=365-1002-ND so I figured it should be on falling edge not rising.
Ill give your set up a try today.
Thanks,
Jim
Do note : Disable the input functions that you don't use.
You had input channels for ALS and something else active!
Car is running pretty damn good now. I took your tables and redid them for N/A as your map values went well above atmospheric. Made all the changes you did as well, using 4 ignition 'outputs' but only cycling between two... what is the point of that? And I turned off the two inputs I had on, which I have no idea how they got turned on.
At any rate, it runs great now, no hesitations or lag or nasty jerkiness, and the 20% TPS fuel turn off thing seems to have gone away too, not really sure what that was all about. It is lacking a little bit of power in the high end, but the VE table probably just needs to be tuned again.
Thanks a lot for all the help guys! I know I am a noob at this and some of my questions are... noob questions, so I really appreciate the help while I am learning!
Jim
This forum is *for* noob questions.
The config I posted contains MAP values higher than atmospheric even though I've used them only on N/A engines, there is simply enough resolution already as it is. People often mistake high resolution for accuracy and good driveability - it's a lot more complex than that, VE modelling and interpolation works great.
The point of using 4 positions in the ignition output table is to define all the events in the 4-stroke cycle, that is a must with the 1.1.x firmware. You are simply repeating the same pattern on every revolution of the engine, since you're using "wasted spark".
The fuel cut and stuff you experience before was related the configure inputs that you never used. Where those settings came from (= enabled) I can't say.