VEMS Community Forum

i have been running my car on a link ecu, but to cut a long story short it is borrowed. so i purchased a vems ecu.
and so far i just cant get the laptop, using serial on back not a usb converter, to talk to the vems box.

how do i know what version of software i need to talk to the vems.
how do i know what firmware is on vems if i cant talk to it.
and how do you upload new firmware??

thanks in advance
Hutchie

Have a read through this page.

http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FPhatBob%2FUserGuide

thanks but i have already read that, and printed it so i can follow it @ car, i simply cannot get the laptop to see the vems

Are you 100% sure you have.

12v and ground at the vems.
correct serial connection
correctly selected COM port?

Also try to set higher serial data rate. I couldnt get mine to work until I changed this to 19200. FW 1.1.53

i have tried all the different speeds, but i have no idea what firm ware i have

definately have power and very good ground

:S

Where abouts are you?

im in the north east of england, i bought this vems off mini-valver (dave) you may know him

That ECU should have firmware v1.0.73 on it.  You may have problems with newer versions trying to connect.
http://media.vems.se/code/VemsMT1.0.73Final.zip

tried that  :'(

Have you tried swapping the tx and rx wires into the ec18 plug?

i thought it was plugged into that plug???

(http://www.phattransmissions.com/VEMSUserManual/ConnectingSerialPort.png)

Did you make the harness?

Or are you plugging into the LCD connector?

the harness came with it

Now that is really strange - the cable is a straight through pin 2 to pin 2 and pin 3 to pin 3 isnt it?

yeah  :-\

nothing is ever simple for me :(

is there anyway i can see if there is definate power inside the box, LED's or anything?

No LEDs inside the box I'm afraid, you could maybe PM Sprockets or Gunni on here and see if they can take a look at it for you.

A quick power check would be to test the 5v pin - that would prove that the power is going into the box and getting stepped down to 5v

i have 5 volts being stepped down, so i have power, just i have no responce from ecu,

i do get an error message when i run megatune saying it hasnt recieved the correct table.

is this where i am going wrong?

If you fire up the Terminal program and send the unit an uppercase A the unit should respond with a string showing the current firmware.

Start up Megatune only, no terminal program. Select in the File menu 'off line'. Connect serial cable to ECU and PC. Go to the Communications menu, Select settings, then select the com port that you are using and click to test button. If it does not return a 'success' message, the com port is miss configured or the wiring is incorrect.

Once you recieve a success message, you then need to go back to the file menue and un check the offline selection.

The 'serial' port on nearly every PC is com1. Do you have any other software running in the background on your PC that might be grabbing com1(mouse, mobile phone, sat nav for example)? Have you tried another PC?

What is the exact warning/ error message that Megatune throws up? Screen capture and post a pic?

IIRC firmware after 1.0.79 use 19200 baude (AIM enabled firmware) and everything before was 9600.

Also, if you do not know what firmware is in the ECU, Megatune wont like the wrong version. Can we please see the error message?

(http://file052b.bebo.com/1/original/2009/11/28/18/18189064a11912198470o.jpg)

and i still cant get ecu to "respond"

You seem to be using a MegaSquirt version of MegaTune - VEMS is responding with the correct signature for it, but not for the MegaTune version.

i have now managed to get a version of megatune, the one you linked to earlier in this thread, thought it was one installed on laptop but obviously wasn't. anyhoo i can now open megatune without getting an error message but when i test it i still get no responce

and the terminal seems to return jibberish when i type an upper case A

at the top of the megatune window it reads

"MegaTune 2.25 - VEMS Genboard v3, 1.0.38"

if that helps


i bought the blue banded one... cvnt
http://195.159.109.134/vemsuk/forum/index.php/topic,979.0.html

Have a check in the File menu - does the offline item have a tick next to it?

i have tried that on and off,

terminal returns info when i press S and Q
vems genboard v3 1.0.38
vems v1.0 12x12 kpa2.1t

Probably you have to start from nothing anyway. 1.0.38 is pre Noa firmware. Only values usable is pump zero and nernst target - you have this values already.

I suggest you using this package with firmware and releted Megatune:
http://media.vems.se/code/VemsMT1.1.54.zip
No need to install. Just unzip.

In package you will find tool for firmware update.

Gints

i must be retarded, i obviously have a connection to the Vems because i can retrieve firmware info off it,

but when trying to upload new firmware it tell me there is no connection....  ???

Are you uploading using the batchfiles?  In which case the new VemsTune package may be the better option - the batchfiles have a comm port setting inside them which might not match your actual port.

Rob

i have managed to get the firmware uploaded thats GintsK suggested.

i can connect to it brilliant :D

so now is this firmware ok to use and also whats the difference between 16x14 and 12x12??

can i get a rough basemap from somewhere or start from scratch??

hutchie

Post up details about

your engine capacity
injection pressure
injector size
compression ratio

and somebody might be willing to piece together some values.

Do you have any values in the VE and ignition tables?

1600
non turbo
on throttle boddies off a 1000cc motorbike so unsure of spec on injectors
11:1 comp ratio
wasted spark twin coil ignition
rpm limit of 8000
running 95 ron pump fuel

Well it´s going to be hard to help without knowing fuel pressure and injector size.

Are you going to run alpha-n or map sensor?

i cant run MAP sensor as theres baisically no manifold.
and no vaccum at idle as brake servo stops (was fine before high lift cams)

whats alpha-n?

fuel pressure is regulated from the tank, ie no return or regulator on the fuel rail.
and i have spent a fair bit of time previously trying to work out injector size, but to no avail :(

Alpha means Angle
N means rpm´s.

so it´s throttle angle vs rpm´s

You should be able to see the numbers on the injectors and look them up.

because they are injectors out of a motorcycle i am failing to find anywhere that lists info on them

(http://file052b.bebo.com/1/original/2009/12/07/23/18189064a11948137170o.jpg)

heres a pic of the flywheel, there are 58 teeth including the big one, i assume this is 60-2???

are these settings correct?

(http://file052b.bebo.com/5/original/2009/12/07/23/18189064a11948156848o.jpg)

crank min period (usec) what goes in here???

Number of teeth would be 58
Next trigger tooth depends on the number of cylinders.

So if you have 2 in trigger tooth, then 60/4 = 15
Next trigger tooth should be 15
I usually have 2224 in there, but I don´t know what it really does.

4 cylinder  ???

Well I only figured cause you have 1600cc engine?

yeah thats correct

http://koabi.lazyslacker.com/VEMS/cranktriggers.php

returns this info

Crank Trigger Wheels!
Number of Cylinders: 4   
Trigger Wheel Type: 60-2   
Stroke: 4
   
Full Cycle: 720
Total Teeth: 60
Missing Teeth: 2
Angle Per Tooth: 6
Degrees per tooth for 8bit (255 samples): 2.125
Scaled degrees per tooth for 8bit (240 samples): 2
Scaled degrees per cycle: 240
Scaled degrees of missing teeth 6
Next Trigger tooth: 30
Scaled Degrees per Cylinder: 60

I made a mistake to change the 360 degrees into 4 cylinders, where it´s only 2, next 360 are for the next two, and then it starts again.

ok ill try it tomorrow night after work and see if i get an RPM, i dout it but theres always hope

58 teeth on a 60-2.
Theres GRM Racers' trigger setup info here:
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage/GrmRacer/TriggerSetup

tried ecu the other night and i got an rpm on cranking, i need the car this weekend, but then i will start swapping ecu's, expect to be hassled tuesday night when i cant get it to run lol

which pins do i connect ignition to
4cyl running wasted spark

heres the info on my ecu 1419

Assembled v3.3 controller
  - Flyback: 30V flyback
  - ignition driver: 4
  - Knock and EGT: yes
  - MAP connection: 400kPa (6/4mm pneumatic)
  - mounting-style: screws
  - primary_trigger: VR
  - secondary_trigger: HALL

wbo2_pump_pw_zero=0x67
wbo2_nernstdc_target=0x83

i have a choice of going direct to the coil or using the existing ignitors on the vehicle, from the last standalone setup.

cheers hutchie

How does this suit?
(http://www.phattransmissions.com/VEMSUserManual/ConnectingCoilpack.png)

is it best wiring direct to coil or through an ignitor???

Depends on your ecu setup.
you may well find that your ecu has igniters or drivers built in.

Four ignition drivers, you can wire it as shown.

no spark :(

If your ecu get´s rpm, then you need to verify that the output wires are indeed sending a signal to the coil.
Best would be an oscilloscope.
But you could unhook the wire from the coil, and measure continuity to ground while cranking the engine, you should if you multimeter has a beep function hear the beep come on and of. Or connect a light bulp to 12v on the other side, it will then turn on and off

i connected a multimeter, and it does not beep on cranking, is there anything to configure in megatune???

You must have configured the ignition outputs.

Do you have your config available?

even if i did i wouldnt know where to start telling you about it.

Make sure you are using the correct dwell time and MAP scale value for the ignition coil. Set to 1 so that only VBatt is in use.

How have you set up the trigger refference table?

the more questions i ask on here the more i get confused.com

review EVERY menue and its settings!!!

Ignition coil dwell times are set in 'Ignition Settings' menue. Ignition coil dwell times are called 'Coil Charge Time @ 13.2v (ms)' this is normaly between 1.5 and 3.5ms

The next field underneath depends on which firmware you are using. The recent 1.1.xx firmares (read that as 1.1.42 onwards) it is called 'Coil Charge Time MAP scale' This should be set to 1 so that only battery compensation is activated. Battery compensation is then automtic. 0 will not adjust the coil charge time against the voltage and as such, with a dying battery at cranking, there may not be enough voltage to generate a spark. If you are using a 1.0.xx firmware this next field is instead called 'Coil Charge time added @ 6v (ms)' and as it describes adds the time value at 6v to the time value at 13.2v (14v) This is the battery compensation and is manualy set. I usualy set this for 50% of the value set at 13.2v (14v)

The trigger 'reference tooth table' (also known as h[1]) is only on the 1.1.xx firmwares and can be found in the advanced menu. This table needs to be set up so that it is a sort of image of the ignition output table (also called h[2]). This ALL depends on how you have set up the ignition outputs table h[2] on which driver on which cylinder and the type of trigger you have.

It would be best provide a fresh config and tables file, or at the very least to post up a screen shot of the 'Ignition outputs' h[2] table and the 'Reference tooth table' h[1]. Also tell us which EC36 pins you have connected the coil to. That way some one may be able to see whats missing

Download the config files is explained in the firmware upgrade topic in the 'software' forum (one above this 'configuration' forum on the main page)

thanks so much

ill go and try a few settings and see if i get any further.
i have connected ignition wires as rob showed me in a previous post.
i have had a quick look at the "tables" and they look ok. is it best in order to get it running safely to set advance the same value across the table. then adjust it when tuning.

just to add. i dont need to have everything wired up to have a spark do i, i have ecu wired up at the moment to tdc sensor and temp sensor then to the coil. i have rpm on megatune (100 rpm) on cranking, surely thats enough for it to create a spark in theory.

Yes, that's all you need for a spark.

reading through a few threads on here, would h [2] entries maybe halting my progress? how to i look at, change them?

They're your Ignition outputs in MegaTune

how do i know if my ecu is fucked. it just has no output at all

i may just go to omex and i would have the car running in a week FFS

You are not helping us by not providing either the config files, of which I have explained where you can find the information to gather those, or if that is too complicated, screen shots of the menus that are of question.

Without explaining everything here, have a read of this http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FPhatBob%2FUserGuide if you havent already, then, ask the questions about the missing bits.

Also have a look over these

http://www.vems.hu/manual/html/
http://www.vems.hu/manual/html/ch12s02.html


Reference tooth h[1] table should look something like this for a four cylinder wasted spark with 62-2 trigger

0....................32
1....................0

0 being TDC and 32 being BDC

Ignition output h[2] table should look something like this

0...................EC36
1...................EC34

EC34 being coil 1 (cylinders1+4) and EC36 being coil 2 (cylinders 2+3) (these numbers depend on which is coil 1 and which is coil 2, if coil 1 is EC36, put 34 where 36 is and 36 where 34 is)

Also make sure the 'Ignition outputs in use in h[2]' is set to 01..00

What is happening within the firmware is that you are linking the ECU output hardware/ ignition coils in the order that it fires the coil (Ignition output table h[2]), and then you are linking that with the actual phase of the engine (reference tooth table h[1]). This results in the coil 1 firing on cylinders 1 and 4 at or near TDC on cylinder 1 and 4. (the tables run from bottom to top, remember this!!!)

So to recap, coil 1 ---> EC34 ---> h[2]1......EC34 ---> h[1]1........0

It is done this way which makes it infinately configurable, or, as the makers would have us use, Versatile ;D you can connect the ignition coils to any ignition output, yet you can still configure the firmware so that you get the end result. It has gotten me out of a pickle a few times being able to do this.

thanks guys for all your help, i appreciate that you didnt have to help, but you have.

i need a reliable car.

anyone wanna buy a vems???

Not being funny mate but it took me 4 weeks to get to a running engine starting completely from scratch as you have, and its taken another 2 1/2 years to get to the where I am now. Programable EFI needs a fairly good understanding of how an engine works, otherwise its going to cost a fortune to get some one else to do it all for you. Also worth noting is that ANY low to mid priced system will NEVER compare with an OEM factory ECU. With Omex, you would benefit from there being tuning houses that can readily fit and set up the system, but you will pay for it in more ways than one. As for reliability, that is subjective, as reliability in my eyes is an OEM factory ECU, but if the engine is so far from standard that the OEM ECU cannot cope, then you are going to have to put up with a comprimise.

Just a thought, but if you borrowed another manufacturers ECU, was it already set up for it to work, who set it up, and could you not ask their help?

I would also suggest you buy and read this book at the very least http://www.amazon.co.uk/Engine-Management-Optimising-Carburettors-High-performance/dp/1859608353/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262220579&sr=8-1

Which ever way you go about it, you will still need at least 2-3 hours on the dyno

the other ecu that i did have on the car, a borrowed one, although it had the TDC already configured i had the rest to setup myself. two light weekends messing about had the car running really really well.

months messing with the vems system, and i now dont have an RPM anymore. Im sorry i cant cope with that progress.

I have been a mechanic for a few years now, and always had an intrest in cars. but me and the vems ECU have not had a good relationship, and unfortunately a devorce is sure to happen.

i have decided that i am going with a company called tour-de-force. i have had legthy phone calls with matt there and we have come up with a simple solution.

thank you very much for your advise.

hutchie

TDF are not that far from me - where are you?