VEMS Community Forum

VEMS => Configuration => Topic started by: multiplex on October 11, 2009, 04:51:19 AM

Title: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: multiplex on October 11, 2009, 04:51:19 AM
running 1.1.57

I've noticed that my spark angle is running 4 degrees lower than the table values. I've gone through and found some small issues with the config that were causing other spark related issues but havne't tracked this one down yet.  Any ideas on what it could be?

I'm wondering how long its been this way - 4 degrees could possibly be a huge jump in power if it actually starts working properly. I need to boot up my old laptop and check out my logs from a year ago on 1.1.27 firmware

here are my current logs, and configs in various formats

voytilla.com/vems/101009.csv (http://voytilla.com/vems/101009.csv)   -  CSV file for megalogviewer
voytilla/com/vems/101009.msq (http://voytilla/com/vems/101009.msq)  -  MSQ for megalogviewer
voytilla/com/vems/101009.vemscfg (http://voytilla/com/vems/101009.vemscfg)  -  vemscfg for vemstune
voytilla/com/vems/101009.vemslog (http://voytilla/com/vems/101009.vemslog)  -  vemslog for vemstune
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: MWfire on October 11, 2009, 05:46:54 AM
iat retard, cold enginde ignitio retard?
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: gunni on October 11, 2009, 05:47:42 AM
Your knock control is active.

That´s about all I can see.

And from the log there doesn´t really seem to be any advance change do to do knock registering
And I didn´t put up all the available spark advance correction gauges to have a proper look at them.
But one of them must have the info. You can add a ton of gauges through

tools - add new gauge symbol/descriptor .
You´ll have to restart the program when you have added them.

More editing.

What is the deal with your duty cycle? It goes to 125%? How big are your injectors and what is the fuel pressure
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: multiplex on October 11, 2009, 08:47:04 AM
thanks for the reply

yes initially, i was having spark retard due to misconfiguration of knock. I got that cleared up.

i'll try to add more gauges - wow there are alot of them!

not sure about the duty cycle. What should this be?  my injectors are 60lbs and fuel pressure is around 43psi.

Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: multiplex on October 11, 2009, 08:53:29 AM
follow up question. once i add the gauges, will i need to log again?  I'm assuming the data doesn't already exist in the current logs?

Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: multiplex on October 11, 2009, 09:07:37 AM
one more follow up.  i checked old logs from 1.1.27 and my duty cycle was maxing around 70%.  I'm thinking there is a calculation error occuring with vems. its almost reporting double

i'm going to upgrade to 1.1.62 tomorrow and see what happens

this is why i love vems!  ::)
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: gunni on October 11, 2009, 03:27:02 PM
You shouldn´t need to log again.

Lack of documentation is why we all "love" it.  :'(
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: multiplex on October 11, 2009, 11:00:01 PM
all of the correction gauges show zero change, or they show what the correct timing should be.

The only gauge that shows anything is the spark_corr_diff  (i believe thats the name), which is showing the difference between the spark map and the actual tuning.

i did confirm that the actual timing on the car is matching the spark_angle gauge

any thoughts?

this is driving me nuts!
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: multiplex on October 11, 2009, 11:24:07 PM
one thing i forgot to add - the car isn't coming out of warmup. could this be effecting things?

Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: gunni on October 11, 2009, 11:46:25 PM
From what I could see then the non warmup is not having any effect. As I looked at all the gauges and can´t see anything really.

I can see that your accelaration enrichment is pulling timing, try and take that away to test.
but it´s a long shot, as I couldn´t find any gauge that represents that function.
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: multiplex on October 12, 2009, 02:35:02 AM
Ok thanks for checking it out.  I'm going to try and turn off the accel retard later today and see if that helps

I'm wondering if the duty cycle could just be calculated wrong?  Possibly 2x?  since i'm running sequential.

worst case - i'm going to go back to older firmware :(

any ideas why warm up isn't turning off?
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: gunni on October 12, 2009, 05:04:37 AM
Warmup is just badly programmed as your temp scale goes to 89C ,
and the ecu assumes that everything below that is warmup.

Can you get another log? Cause I noticed that all the 1bar runs where 70% duty cycle.
But somehow it shot alot higher and over 100% when the map went somewhat higher then that at just one point.

your req fuel also seems to say that you have no problem running out the injectors.
And shouldn´t your M50/M52/S52 have a 3.5bar fuel pressure ?
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: multiplex on October 13, 2009, 09:23:29 AM
feel like i made a little more progress today. I went line by line and compared the default 1.1.61 config to mine.  FF'd out alot of variables that my not have been needed.

motor is by far running the best it has been in a while. It is still pulling timing though. I've set up to log spark_curve_diff so i can see if the changes correlate to anything

one strange thing - if i open up the spark table and change the first RPM bin from 900 to 1200 or higher the spark difference drops. If i move it all the way up to 7500 its pretty much zero. If i go the other direciton, it gets worse.  Explain that!

i'll be back tomorrow with more logs
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: z0tya on October 13, 2009, 02:32:30 PM
ign retard at acceleration = 14 deg
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: multiplex on October 13, 2009, 07:56:43 PM
found that - its set to zero now, but still no change.

It seems to pull more timing during warmup, when the motor is cold. Like 16 degrees, then tapers off. But i can't find any coolant temp related ign settings?

Quote from: z0tya on October 13, 2009, 02:32:30 PM
ign retard at acceleration = 14 deg
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: GintsK on October 13, 2009, 08:31:52 PM
Quote from: multiplex on October 13, 2009, 07:56:43 PM
found that - its set to zero now, but still no change.

It seems to pull more timing during warmup, when the motor is cold. Like 16 degrees, then tapers off. But i can't find any coolant temp related ign settings?

Quote from: z0tya on October 13, 2009, 02:32:30 PM
ign retard at acceleration = 14 deg
But there is! 3D table for retard from IAT vs TPS% (or MAP)
VT or MT?
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: gunni on October 13, 2009, 09:05:20 PM
IAT is not Coolant

His IAT is not having effect ,
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: GintsK on October 13, 2009, 09:49:13 PM
Sorry! My fault.

Also new firmwares have possibility to configure retard value at warmup.
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: multiplex on October 13, 2009, 10:19:28 PM
Any idea what variables these might be? It could be warmup related - although i am now officially out of warmup mode by moving down my upper temp bin

my favorite variable so far is blablabla[0] - blablabla[7]   ::)



Quote from: GintsK on October 13, 2009, 09:49:13 PM
Sorry! My fault.

Also new firmwares have possibility to configure retard value at warmup.
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: gunni on October 13, 2009, 10:48:16 PM
None of the gauges seem to show that cold coolant is having effect.

Also the coolant adjustment is not an adjustable variable. Which it should of course be.
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: GintsK on October 14, 2009, 02:25:54 AM
Ignition settings -> Other - Ign adjust cold (0deg C)
It is adjustable :)
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: multiplex on October 14, 2009, 07:44:09 AM
i have that set to zero, but the ign retard clamp isn't

What does ignition_retard_clamp do?  should it be zero?

well anyways here are a few more logs and configs. I've added spark_curve_diff so you can see the change that is in effect

One set of logs is driving around, the other is warmup from cold

www.voytilla.com/vems/warmup.csv (http://www.voytilla.com/vems/warmup.csv)
www.voytilla.com/vems/warmup.vemslog (http://www.voytilla.com/vems/warmup.vemslog)
www.voytilla.com/vems/boost_pulls.csv (http://www.voytilla.com/vems/boost_pulls.csv)
www.voytilla.com/vems/boost_pulls.vemslog (http://www.voytilla.com/vems/boost_pulls.vemslog)
www.voytilla.com/vems/101309b.vemscfg (http://www.voytilla.com/vems/101309b.vemscfg)





Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: z0tya on October 14, 2009, 01:56:01 PM
from changelog:
since 1.1.56:* config.ignretard_clamp adjusts maximum ATDC retard
from global.h:
uint8_t ignretard_clamp;     // ignition retard claming.0=clamp at 63.75 (no clamping); 200=clamp at 64-(200/4) ATDC;

and one more interesting from changelog:
since 1.1.52: * cold retard renamed to cold adjust, set 128 to zero adjust
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: multiplex on October 15, 2009, 06:15:18 AM
ok problem is solved!  ;D

it seems to be MAT retard related, even though that didn't show up in the logs, and i was not in any region of the retard table that should have effected anything

regardless, here is what i found

config13 was set to Hex 16 = 10110 in binary

I changed it to 11110 binary to disable MAT retard

thanks everyone for the help

i did learn about a few new cool features in the process. I kinda like the cold ign adv settings.

#define ODDFIRE               0 // 0:normal, 1:odd-fire
#define O2_WB_SENSOR          1 // 0:narrowband, 1:diy-wb
#define CONTROL_STRATEGY      2 // 0:use the MAP or tps map blend for fuel calcs 1:do not use any multipliers
#define BARO_CORRECTION       3 // 0:off, 1:on
#define MAT_RETARD            4 // 0:on, 1:off
#define IGNLAMBDA_TPSKPA   5 // 0: ign, lambda looked up by kpa; 1: ign, lambda looked up by tpskpa, see hybrid_rpm_...
#define CLT_CURVE_17_POINT      6   // 1:use config curve, 0: use flash curve
#define MAT_CURVE_17_POINT      7   // 1:use config curve, 0: use flash curve



Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: z0tya on October 15, 2009, 02:52:48 PM
I have seen very interesting thing on warmup log
There are spikes in spark and invert of this in spark diff (i dont know what is it) til 18 C clt.
(http://www.cosworth.hu/misc/voy/voy1.png)
And after clt goes up the spikes will infrequent.
After 33C CLT the spike inverted and densed til 65C
(http://www.cosworth.hu/misc/voy/voy2.png)
This is a secret warm up feature? :)
And in your spark table show about 14 deg, when the spark angle guage show 2 til 85C clt
(http://www.cosworth.hu/misc/voy/voy3.png)

I dont really understand

So if you switch off mat retart at config, this things disapper?
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: MWfire on October 15, 2009, 03:18:51 PM
idle spark control?
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: z0tya on October 15, 2009, 04:24:23 PM
good idea, but disabled in his config
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: gunni on October 15, 2009, 05:55:19 PM
Quote from: multiplex on October 15, 2009, 06:15:18 AM
ok problem is solved!  ;D

it seems to be MAT retard related, even though that didn't show up in the logs, and i was not in any region of the retard table that should have effected anything

regardless, here is what i found

config13 was set to Hex 16 = 10110 in binary

I changed it to 11110 binary to disable MAT retard

thanks everyone for the help

i did learn about a few new cool features in the process. I kinda like the cold ign adv settings.

#define ODDFIRE               0 // 0:normal, 1:odd-fire
#define O2_WB_SENSOR          1 // 0:narrowband, 1:diy-wb
#define CONTROL_STRATEGY      2 // 0:use the MAP or tps map blend for fuel calcs 1:do not use any multipliers
#define BARO_CORRECTION       3 // 0:off, 1:on
#define MAT_RETARD            4 // 0:on, 1:off
#define IGNLAMBDA_TPSKPA   5 // 0: ign, lambda looked up by kpa; 1: ign, lambda looked up by tpskpa, see hybrid_rpm_...
#define CLT_CURVE_17_POINT      6   // 1:use config curve, 0: use flash curve
#define MAT_CURVE_17_POINT      7   // 1:use config curve, 0: use flash curve





It may be that since your config had MAT retard enabled that when you have that, it does both the old retard as well as your MAT retard table. So one you could see not having effect, while the other one was actually happening in the background.

Obviously this old retard should be removed and the retard table always active, and anybody can just put in zeros if they don´t want it to have an effect.

EDIT.

I just ran a test on my ecu I have here.
Where I disabled MAT retard, the table did not work and no changes where.
When the retard was active the table works, but if I took out the numbers no ignition change was there.
Maybe it´s specific to your firmware?
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: z0tya on October 15, 2009, 08:48:24 PM
anyway do you have gauge groups in the new 2009/10/02 0.10.0 Vemstune?
Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: multiplex on October 16, 2009, 12:30:08 AM
yeah what is weird is my first entry in my MAT retard table was for 40 degrees C.  I never even came close to that region  ???

I have yet to figure out gauge groups and even basic gauge setups in vemstune - i need some help there.

Title: Re: spark 4 degrees less than table
Post by: GintsK on November 01, 2009, 03:48:30 PM
I note retarded spark from table when configurated acceleration retard. It retards and stays forever. It is on 1.1.53.
I must check this on newer firmwares.

Gints