Author Topic: Lean Burn  (Read 19541 times)

Offline MWfire

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Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2009, 04:51:52 am »
On my car i get lowest consumption at lambda 1.07-1.09. So far i made more than 30 000km on lean mixture(crusing on lean and rich on wot). My eco test(i set lamda 1.00 becouse of law) was veary good(0.00% CO, HC less than 10ppm). I think that is good for 18 years old car.

Offline Sprocket

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Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2009, 06:51:40 am »
Cliff, all very interesting stuff and I am learning as I go ;D

Going back to the throttles. The original K1200 bike head used the 38mm throttles that I intend to fit. The bore is the same as the bike engine, but the stroke is longer, giving me just over anothr 100cc resulting in the 1275cc. I am running the 34mm throttles from the K1100 bike engine at the moment. The way I see it is that if BMW though it wise to fit 38mm throttles on the K1200, that should be the way I go with this engine. after all, I spent a lot of time and effort to get the cylinder head and bores to line up as if it were the Bike engine ;D The ports in the head a standard and the same whether K100, K1100 or K1200, the heads are pretty much all the same, although the K1200 uses 5mm stem valves as oposed to the 6mm stems

Currently the cruse point is around 14% at 30mph and around 20% at 60mph. Maybe its just the throttle break points but that is the middle of the map, which leaves me little room to traverse to the rich load points and have enough of them at the top of the map. I would hope for the same throttle % that the larger throttles will provide more air but lower down the map, so I can move the lean spot down and away from the rich load points. Its going to be a suck it and see matter, excuse the puhn ;D

I have the idle tuned for Lambda 1 and the fast idle set for 1.02, while I dont yet have the cat fitted, it will be going back on when I can get the link pipe welded up.. Everything above the 5000rpm mark in the cruse area is lambda 1, and blending from low rpm to the 5000rpm is smooth, as it is going from part throttle to full throttle, but i would like to drop the full throttle 0.86 lambda down a line or two. I have raised the compretion ration half a point from the standard 11:1, I run V power all the time and I have increased the part throttle ignition advance to 38 degrees with 30/ 32 at full throttle. we never managed to get the ignition map tuned due to issues unknown causing a retard of advance going into the engine compared to what was actualy in the map.

I dont think there will be much of a problem loosing some torque off the bottom of the map requiring more throttle input, the engine puts out over 100bhp at full throttle and the car only really needs 18bhp to keep it moving. so if by opening the throttle and leaning off i can get the torque back to the reuired level at a point in the map that is not too high up the map to affect the transition from part throttle lean to full throttle rich, I think there is some gains to be had in there some where.

One of the other reasons I went for firmware 1.1.44 was the better acceleration enrichments. Hopefully I can tune these to take into consideration the lean spot on the map.

This lean area is purely for cruse and nothing else. The engine revs to 8500rpm and is a bit of an animal at full throttle when it comes on can around 4000rpm

I am never going to get the results manufacturers do, I just cant afford the dyno time :D so a comprimise will always be on the front foot

No harm in trying, and is easy to get back to a lambda 1 map as long as there is no damage to the engine as a result :D

Offline Bat

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Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2009, 06:23:22 pm »
Hi,
Maybe a switch to 14x16 tables will give more room to fit everything in?
You've probably already done that and I'm about a week behind!  :-[
Cheers,
Gavin :)
VEMs Authorised Installer / Re-seller. K head kits for A series now available!

WB/EGT gauges. Click here for customers write-up 

Visit www.doyouneedabrain.co.uk

Offline cliffb75

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Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2009, 03:19:06 am »
I see what you are trying to achieve, and there is certainly no harm in experimenting :) I'm working in generalisations, and as you know how different engines respond to things can vary wildly depending on many factors, so in the end experimentation is the only way to really find out what works for you.

I hear what you are saying about the throttle bodies, but remember that they are sized based on the engine's peak mass flow on a time basis - i.e. how many kg/hour of air does the engine move. You may be using the same head and have an extra 100cc's, but what is your rev limit compared to the bike engine? Does your engine actually achieve the same air mass flow as the original? That may well be the case - and you may even benefit from bigger bodies at peak power (less pressure loss across the butterflies and spindles) - but that doesn't change the basic physics that the same mass flow through a bigger tube will move slower, so at your low load point where the enine is still consuming the smae amount of air, it will be moving more slowly through the throttles, and this may lead to worse charge preparation, maybe.....

Also, it sounds like you are basically changing a major engine component because the ECU has a lack of functionality (in this case, the possibility to adjust the breakpoints to where you need them) - I guess you'd have to take that up with the developers. Would there be a way of adjusting the signal instead to make it non linear (though I realise that is a bit of a bodge)?

In any event, you've clearly thought it through and want to give it a go, and it would be great if you can get it to work nicely - I look forward to following your progress ;)

Offline Sprocket

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Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2009, 04:34:07 am »
Peak power of the K1200 is 130bhp at 8750 rpm.

So par with a mixed cam set ( lower duration inlet cam) I managed 107 at 7300rpm. That is without igniton at MBT and cam timing different to that of the bike.

I have since fitted a matching pair of cams, and set the time to match the bike, and it does feel quite happy to rev to 8000rpm. I have an hour on the dyno next friday to resolve the ignition map and to fine tune the VE map for the new cam settings. As you say, its all in the testing. We will have to wait and see ;D

The larger throttles can wait until I have pulled the engine to fix the oil pressure problem, but thats after the dyno shoot out next Saturday. Which should be the biggest collection of the most powerfull A series engines in the world in one place !!  ;D

Offline rob@vems.co.uk

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Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2009, 04:38:39 pm »
Also, it sounds like you are basically changing a major engine component because the ECU has a lack of functionality (in this case, the possibility to adjust the breakpoints to where you need them) - I guess you'd have to take that up with the developers. Would there be a way of adjusting the signal instead to make it non linear (though I realise that is a bit of a bodge)?

I'm not sure what you're saying, with the 16x14 map you can set the breakpoints where ever you please.  Which signal are you trying to make non-linear?

Offline cliffb75

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Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2009, 02:18:12 am »
Err, I'm not trying to do anything....... :-[

I was inferring from Sprockets comments that he had a problem with the cruise point being halfway up the map - i.e. he felt he was lacking resolution between the cruise point and WOT to make the transition from lean side to rich side fuelling.

If he is able to adjust the TPS breakpoints (presumably by switching to a different firmware?) then all will be well  ;D

It's a good job you are here to keep and eye on things Rob  ;)

Offline rob@vems.co.uk

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Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2009, 03:06:22 am »
 :oCliff, I'm not coming over all moderator with hammers - I was trying to quantify what was being said, and if a problem with the implementation had been identified then we could define it and feed it into the developers TODO list...

The TPS/MAP breakpoints can be adjusted where ever needed with any firmware.

Thank-you for your kind words regarding my attendance on this forum, its less of a hobby, and more of a calling ;)

Offline cliffb75

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Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2009, 12:33:39 am »
 ;D
 ;)

Offline rob@vems.co.uk

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Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2009, 01:03:22 am »
 ???
 ::)
 :P

Offline Sprocket

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Re: Lean Burn
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2009, 04:38:03 am »
 :D