Author Topic: Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary  (Read 21971 times)

Offline royal

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Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary
« on: November 05, 2008, 03:06:56 pm »
Just wanted to bring this up here for discussion as I've been bombading Bob with pms  ;D

I have a single turbo mazda Rx7 FD3s and looking at VEMs. The Rx7 runs a leading and trailing plug on each rotor with the trailing typically 12 degrees after the leading whilst on boost. In vacuum people see fuel economy benefit from running no split, although having the ability to do this doesn't necessarily bother me as its a track/drift car. The general feeling is that above 5psi having no split is not a good thing due to det. Does anyone here run a boosted rotary on just the leading plugs or both at the same time like this as a track car? There are certainly drag cars that run just the leading on high boost but its short duration and completely different enviroment to drifting.

Offline royal

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Re: Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2008, 04:18:09 pm »
Found some more detail here:

Rotary Engine 101: Ignition   
Since the working chambers of each rotor fire in the same geographic location in the engine, only one set of spark plugs are needed per rotor housing. Due to the complexities of combusting a long chamber, two spark plugs are used in each housing. The lower one is called the "leading" spark plug, while the top one is called the "trailing" spark plug. Additionally, the front rotor housing is denoted as "1" and the rear rotor housing is denoted as "2". So, in short hand, the Trailing (top) plug on the front rotor housing is referred to as "T1", the Leading (lower) plug in the front rotor housing is referred to as "L1", and so forth. 
   
   
 As the working chamber approaches Top Dead Center (TDC), the leading plug fires first, starting the ignition of the air-fuel mixture and contributing most to the generation of power. The trailing plug typically fires 10 to 15 degrees later and effectively completes the combustion of the remaining air-fuel mixture above the minor axis of the trochoid housing. Additionally, the leading plug fires a second time ( Note: the Leading (lower) plugs always fire simultaneously, while the Trailing (top) plugs fire independantly of each other.) late in the power stroke, which is called a "wastespark". The wastespark is done to simplify the ignition system by allowing both leading plugs to be fired "on the same channel" (one coil, one signal) . Basically, both leading plugs always fire at the same time, so there is an extra (wasted) spark during the power stroke. The trailing plugs cannot be fired in wastespark mode due to the location of the plug above the minor axis -- when one trailing plug is firing, the other trailing plug is already in the next working chamber, where it would preignite the incoming air-fuel mixture. 
As you may have figured out, there are three discrete ignition "channels" -- one for the leading plugs and two separate ones for the trailing plugs. Early, distributor-controlled, rotary engines could get away with only two coils (one each for leading and trailing ignitions) due to the coil engery being redirected through the distributor to the appropriate trailing spark plug. Later, crank angle sensor-controlled, rotary engines (starting with the 2nd generation RX-7) require three separate coils due to the direct-fire setup. 
 
 TIMING COMMENTS
Timing of the engine, be it ignition or intake/exhaust porting, is based on degrees of eccentric shaft rotation, rather than rotor rotation. The difference is that the rotor rotates at one third the forward rate of the eccentric shaft, so three degrees of eccentric shaft rotation translates to one degree of rotor rotation relative to the housing. It is also helpful to remember that each working chamber of a rotary engine has two Top Dead Centers (minimum chamber volume) and two Bottom Dead Centers (maximum chamber volume). Timing is usually expressed relative to either TDC or BDC, in degrees of eccentric shaft rotation Before or After those critical points. 5° BTDC, for example, means the event in question occurs 5° of eccentric shaft rotation Before the applicable Top Dead Center of a given working chamber. Further, one may refer to Advancing the timing, which simply means to increase degrees BTDC or BBDC, or decrease degrees ATDC or ABDC. Retarding the timing is the converse. Relative measurements such as these are difficult to grasp at first, but they make the most sense in application.
 
 

Offline royal

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Re: Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2008, 01:28:33 pm »
Righto, some more information in case there was any kind bod out there who could program this feature into the system  ;)
Please excuse the fact I don't know what I'm doing yet, I'm reading like a monk at the moment so hopefully will have more of a clue soon enough.

This link shows some examples of the megasquirt rotary leading / trailing plug features.
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/Technical/EFISystemRelated/MegaSquirt/BDC_SparkAdvanceTables_Oct082008.zip.html

From what I can gather it gives you another 6 * 6 map and you can input the degrees after the leading plug that the trailing plug fires. From what I've read about the way its implemented on other ECUs (Haltech in the thread I was reading) I think its quite important to make sure the trailing plug is fired based on a calculation off of the leading plug. That way its impossible for the trailing plug to fire before the leading plug which is very bad for the Rotary when its on boost.

Offline royal

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Re: Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2008, 01:29:30 pm »
This is the original link from www.rx7club.com that I got the info from.
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=792168

Offline rob@vems.co.uk

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Re: Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2008, 11:38:51 am »
So as the first spark advance is calculated:
Advance = IgnitionTable(MAP,RPM)
Trailing = IgnitionTable(MAP,RPM) - TrailingTable(MAP,RPM)

TrailingTable values would be in the range 0 to 25.5

I wonder if this could work with Dual Ignition out, if selected then refer to the offset map for second channel spark offset?

Offline royal

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Re: Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2008, 12:08:18 pm »
Thats interesting, it sounds very similar to something somebody suggested to me yesterday? is it something thats already on the system or do you mean add the offset map into the dual ignition out part?

Offline rob@vems.co.uk

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Re: Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2008, 01:22:49 pm »
That's the definition of how I think it would work if it were to be implemented, hopefully Sambas will be able to work out if it is possible to do this.  He said he'd look but no promises.

My concern is that its one of these things that an OEM can, with their experts and dynos, make work very well, but with road tuning, and expensive rolling road time find to be more of a distraction than a benefit.

Offline royal

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Re: Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2008, 04:13:52 pm »
That's the definition of how I think it would work if it were to be implemented, hopefully Sambas will be able to work out if it is possible to do this.  He said he'd look but no promises.
Cool would be great to sort something. I'll probably look at putting the system into the skyline either way at some point but I'd really like to pu it into the Rex now as I'm building it.

My concern is that its one of these things that an OEM can, with their experts and dynos, make work very well, but with road tuning, and expensive rolling road time find to be more of a distraction than a benefit.
I wouldn't be so bothered if I knew I could get along without it but so far I've found no evidence of anyone running a turbocharged rotary without trailing plugs. The closest is bcool on here but I can't get hold of him still and although it look like his car is running its not on boost, which is where the problem lies. There seems to be people running VEMS and megasquirt on NA rotarys, but not turbocharged. The MS guys have an extra feature for trailing plugs for turbocharged cars which looks fairly recent. I'm not so keen to use that system though.

This guy from the Wiki is talking about a firmware upgrade:
quote : As for the coils, the Haltech guys use 4.5 - 5ms dwell time on the stock coils, so I figure I'll start there. The split trailing should be fairly easy. Although it will most likely require firmware changes (#ifdef ROTARY)
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FJasonRussell

Have you heard of this before???

Offline royal

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Re: Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2008, 04:14:39 pm »
Just realised this should maybe be in the sparks section   ::)

Offline royal

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Re: Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2008, 04:22:34 pm »
Just found this. Unfortunately its another that goes no further than the opening page :( I wish I could find some complete Rotary projects!:

http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FPelleWallberg

With the current firmware, 1.1.x, it is possible to have the VEMS controlling both the leading and trailing spark with some restrictions. It is only possible to have the trailing spark at 1 tooth (or N teeths) after the leading spark. I.e. with a 24 tooth wheel we get a fixed 15 degrees (or 30, 45 etc.) between leading and trailing spark.

Offline rob@vems.co.uk

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Re: Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2008, 08:18:56 pm »
Jason and Bcool are the two guy's who've got their Rotaries running.  As soon as I catch-up with Jason I'll be directing him here :D

Offline jrussell

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Re: Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2008, 02:36:17 am »

This guy from the Wiki is talking about a firmware upgrade:
quote : As for the coils, the Haltech guys use 4.5 - 5ms dwell time on the stock coils, so I figure I'll start there. The split trailing should be fairly easy. Although it will most likely require firmware changes (#ifdef ROTARY)
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FJasonRussell

I've heard of that guy.  ;D I've had my car running in various forms. With just leadings and with leading and trailing firing at the same time. When I have both firing at the same time I use 4 trailing coils taken off the ignitors. It seems to work well either way. I don't have any dyno results though, but everything I've read points to the trailing plugs only adding a nearly unmeasurable amount of power and helps mostly with emissions.

You can use those dwell settings above if you use the stock ignitors, but around 2.5ms if you use the internal coil drivers.
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Offline royal

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Re: Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2008, 09:42:05 am »
Thanks for replying Jason :)
Were you getting det limited on high boost when just using the leading plugs? (excuse my half grasp of the subject!)

Offline jrussell

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Re: Leading / trailing plugs on a rotary
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2008, 12:58:45 am »
I didn't try to tune right to the edge, so I don't know how close I was to det.
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