Hall as primary and only one trigger (audi 5cyl 10V, big fuel problem)

[orlovsn]

I decided to test if vems can be installed to my old audi with NG engine (2.3L, 10V, non turbo engine) so i removed vems board from nice running bmw's m50 engine and started the installation
NG has only one trigger (as long as it is non turbo from factory, so it never had "135" vr on flywheel) - hall sensor on camshaft with 5 teeth in it's wheel
i tried lucas 240cc injectors and simultaneous injection (as long as i actually don't have crank-sync i cant use individual one, and as i have 5cyl engine i even can't have semi-individual setup)
my primary trigger setup is:
trigger edge - falling
trigger type - coil
special trigger type - normal
tdc after the trigger - 0
number of teeth - 5
first trigger tooth - 0
next trigger tooth - 1 (tried 0), with any setting i get error here
angular width - 72 (tried 36 also)
---
injectors settings:
number of primary injectors - 5
injector firing while cranking - simultaneously

ignition is currently controlled by audi's factory controller, so vems just gives fuel
problem is that it gives toooo much - i can start engine, and vems gets right rpm data (so i see in vemstune 2000 rpm just like i see the same value on stock tach in dashboard), no trigger errors and so on - trigger works fine
i set ve table to get about 1,5 ms at idle and 2 ms at 4000 rpm, priming disabled, warmup, ego and gamma enrichments disabled (all are 100% at vemstune dash)
even at this short times i get very-very-very rich afr- wbo is not installed because i am afraid to damage it with this terrible amount of fuel, and i can't go in shorter times as this injectors are not super fast and timings shorter than 1.2 ms are usually ingored by them
i thought that it's simultaneous injection problem (as injector's must fire 5 times on crank's 360 turn) so i tried to switch my m50b25 (2.5L, R6 24V engine) to simultaneous injection with 340cc injectors used - i got about 2 ms impulse width at idle with 14.5 afr ... and it's 6 340cc injectors instead of 5 200cc injectors with almost the same engine size (2.5 vs 2.3L) - only difference is 60-2 crank in bmw and 5-0 "coil-type" in audi, both are running with 3 bar fuel pressure (checked this)
so, it seems like vems board tries to fire injectors to often - maybe i need some more adjustments for running engine on hall as only trigger? i tried to set "divider" (in "injector settings") to 5, but now changes, also tried to set "cranking fuel divider" to 5 - no changes also 
what must i check next? this engine must have at least 2-3 ms impulse with 200cc injectors at idle (compared to very similar bmw setup with 60-2 instead of hall), but it gets about 3-5 times more than required fuel with hall trigger at 1.5-2ms 
ps it even get's too much fuel running at 7000 rpm with stable 2 ms impulse width ... new word in fuel economy? 

[orlovsn]

ps
3.5 board, 1.1.88 firmware 

[MWfire]

check flyback wire.

[orlovsn]

flyback is ok, if i get fuel ramp outside and start turning engine, injectors works fine - open and close time is ok - they produce a small amount of fuel fog, but they fire really rapidly (unfortunately mised to check if fire rate reduces while turning on divider)
i don't catch two things - must (in "ideal setup") injectors fire 1 or 5 times during crank 360 rotation? mine seems to fire 5 times (actually i can check that with oscilloscope or by simply turning hall's trigger wheel)
and second thing - i use hall on cam, but i get _right_ rpm data while cam is running at 2x speed - i tried both settings for trigger's angular width (36 and 72) but as long as i remember rpm reading were similar - maybe i need to set some divider to show vems i use primary trigger on cam but not crank? or angular width is that "divider"? 

[GintsK]

IMHO angular width of tooth should be 144deg. (720/5)

[orlovsn]

that's the thing i don't really catch - looks like you are right and it must be 720/5 because we have 2x rotation speed and so we have 720 turn while crank turns 360, BUT how do i get right rpm data reading even with 360/5 and 360/2/5 ? this setting is not used in rpm calculation? but then i must have x2 rpm reading if rpm is calculated by counting trigger's teeth 
Maybe i need to set not angular width but teeth count? not 5 but 10 (amount of teeth for double rotation)? and angular width will be 360/10=36 than 

[GintsK]

I think you have wrong angular calculations with 72deg. But rpms comes from cylinder count/tooth count.

[orlovsn]

142 didn't make any change, but reconfiguring "trigger reference tool table" (i thought that's for ignition only, and left it with m50's 60-2 settings) and reuploading firmware (made it "for in case" - maybe it didn't had any sence) helped, and now engine is running with normal afr
can you point me some gide to configuring hall as primary trigger? in documentation everithing is about 60-2, and almost nothing about hall  and as i still get errors on "next trigger tooth" parameter, i seem to miss something

[orlovsn]

now i got some problems with ignition - i've disconnected stock ignition controller and connected coil0 output directly to stock coil and placed +12V to second coil pin via 20A fuse. spark is distributed via stock mechanical distributor
tried default ignition map, "all +10 degrees" and "all -10 degrees"
problem is that i got a lot of misses, and stock ignition map tries to start up engine in reverse order.
injectors are firing simultaneously
current config is:
primary trigger:
- edge - Falling
- type - coil //i use hall
- tdc - 0 //distributor is set to "0" position in TDC
- number of teeth - 5 //i really have 5 teeth - as my hall is located in CAM but not crank, i suppose i need to set 5 but not 5*2
- first tooth - 0 //any tooth must fire ignition event
- next trigger tooth - 1 //every tooth must fire ignition event
- angular width - 144 //720 crank rotation / 5 teeth = 144 crank degrees per each tooth

reference tooth table:
0:0 //as manual recommends
1:4
2:3
3:2
4:1

ignition settings:
ignition outputs in use: 5 //i actually use only one for now, but i plan 5 coils when i'll get crank sync
charge time: 6ms //gives me a normal strenght spark
MAP scale: 1

ignition outputs:
all (0,1,2,3,4) are set to I259-0 EC36 pin 35 //so i all 5 outputs actually fire in one pin becaming 1 output

injector settings:
Divider 1 //maybe i need to set it to 5 as they fire all together?
Number of primary injectors 5 //mabe i need to set it to 1 as long as i fire them at one time?
Injectors firing while cranking - simultaneously
Cranking fuel divider - 1
---
i still get right RPM readings, fuel (after switching to 144 degrees) is somewhere near ok but strange a bit (i get about 6-8 ms pulse width at 1200 rpm - seems too much for 200cc injectors on 5cyl 2.3l engine) if using stock ignition controller, but vems ignition seem to miss something
i think it's somewhere in trigger setup as i now get about double of normal injectors pulse width and ignition misses - maybe it still thinks that it is _crank_ trigger and so i get half of injectors and ignition events? (in trigger log everything is ok) 

[orlovsn]

so, can 5cyl engine run (fuel+spark) on one single CAM 5-0 trigger? wiki says that odd-numbered engines need 2 triggers ... but than it says that if i am ok with ~2 degrees ignition precision, than i can use only one trigger of any type including 5-0 cam
stock ignition also works from one 5-0 cam trigger (i have stock ignition without knock sensing so it is version without 135 trigger, only hall with 5 teeth)

[Erikk]

Hi.

Im running a Audi 5cyl with 5points on the crankshaft.
It has distrubutor and of course it doesnt start every time you try to crank, but for some strange reason it starts 9 times out of 10 so the client is happy.


Number of teeth on wheel: 10
First trigger tooth: 0
Next trigger tooth: 2
Angular width of tooth: 72.

Reference table:
0: 0
1: 8
2: 6
3: 4
4: 2

[orlovsn]

you have 5 points on crank or cam? mine has distributor on cam (in engine's head, near 5th cyl)
today i finally made tps work normally and was able to make normal afr on idle, so i finally can install wbo and tune afr on stock igntion to exclude wrong fuel map from problems with triggering - hope on normal fuel map making ignition map will be simplier 

[Erikk]

you have 5 points on crank or cam? mine has distributor on cam (in engine's head, near 5th cyl)
today i finally made tps work normally and was able to make normal afr on idle, so i finally can install wbo and tune afr on stock igntion to exclude wrong fuel map from problems with triggering - hope on normal fuel map making ignition map will be simplier 

5-points on crank.