Author Topic: Injector sizing  (Read 12682 times)

Offline miniminor63

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • BHP: 1
Injector sizing
« on: July 11, 2007, 05:59:56 pm »
Sorry for a basic question, but here goes:

I have gotten different information about the injectors I have for my engine. Some thrustworthy people tell me they are too small, and som tell me they are big enough.

Its bosch partnumber 0280150749

info:  218.1 cc/min. When testet after cleaning they gave 240 cc/min at 100% duty cycle.

My engine is a 16V 1293 four cylinder engine with 300/292 cams. Hoping to get around 150-160 hp from it.

If they will be too small, what about these http://www.racetronix.com/621020.html ? Are they interchangeable with the bosch 150 series injectors?

Thanks in advance!
André

Offline cliffb75

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 167
  • BHP: 10
Re: Injector sizing
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2007, 06:55:04 pm »
I was going to say 'look here' and then realised that I hadn't finished the fuel hardware guide...... :-[

So now I have - look here  :)

http://www.vems.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=97.0

Scroll down to about half way through post #5, and I have gone through an exeample calculation to select injectors.

As you will see its not necessarily the 'easy' question that you thought it was  ;D

Offline miniminor63

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • BHP: 1
Re: Injector sizing
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2007, 07:26:54 pm »
thanks!extremely helpful! Thats a way more scientific aproach than before! Makes sense, should have thought about it myself really as I am just finished with my combustion engine course in my masters degree ::)

anyway, static flow needed for my engine is then 242 cc/min, which makes my current injectors too small. The others does not seem too bad though, (maybe a bit big, but bang on if I go for E85..), but are they right for fitting inplace of a bosch injector? and does anyone know anything about their quality?

« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 07:47:54 pm by miniminor63 »

Offline miniminor63

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • BHP: 1
Re: Injector sizing
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2007, 12:16:43 pm »
I have also gotten a lead on some 460 cc injectors that are proven to give very good spray pattern already at 0.9 ms. How could I calculate the pulswidth at idle? I thought it would be right to find out how many cc the injector would but out pr msec (460/60/1000 = 0.0077 cc/msec)

Then do the same calculations as you state in your calibration guide (at 1000 rpm (idle), VE 100%, and so on) that give me 27.5 cc/min. I think at 1000 rpm on a 4 stroke it should inject that volume in 500 injections. therefore 0.044 cc/injection. if I then take 0.044/0.0077 I should get the theoretic PW should I not? I get 5.81 msec/inj, so if thats correct the 460 cc injectors should do fine.

Am I anywhere near correct on this? 

Offline miniminor63

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • BHP: 1
Re: Injector sizing
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2007, 05:51:29 pm »
found the answer myself.

Nice calculator: http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcinjpulse.html

I had the VE at idle too high.

Offline miniminor63

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • BHP: 1
Re: Injector sizing
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2007, 06:40:42 pm »
as long as the idle pulsewidth is longer than the time needed for the injector to give stable fuel flow it should be alright should it not?

Offline cliffb75

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 167
  • BHP: 10
Re: Injector sizing
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2007, 08:53:51 pm »
You need quite a bit of info to accurately calculate your required flow at idle.

The calculator in that link also confirms this - you need to give accurate information in the boxes to get sensible answers out.

Using the method I wrote with a VE of 100% only approximates for full load at your maximum engine efficiency point - so your first calculation was a bit off ;) The throttle is basically a VE reducing device.

Even at full load at 1000rpm, your VE will probably be more like 80%. At idle, you can relate it more closely to manifold pressure - so if you engine idles at 20kPa for example then you can approximate this to 20% VE, and hence adjust your calculation for 100% (5.8ms) by dividing by 5 to get 1.2 (ish).

Engine airflow is one part, injector delay time (or null time) is another. Is the quoted 0.9ms the total time or the effective time. If its the latter then the actual electrical energising time (total time) may well need to be 1.2 or greater, depending on how well you can control the injector, what the fuel pressure is, what your normal battery voltage is at idle and so on.

Lastly there are fuel preparation effects to consider. Engines are different, and if you have a highly tuned NA, you may actually require quite a lot more fuel at idle than you might calculate due to poor atomisation (caused by both larger injectors and low charge velocities due to big diameter ports) and losses directly through the cylinder (cam timing and cylinder design effects). This would actually work in your favour with the bigger injectors (assuming they really do have a good spray pattern and atomisation properties) as this will increase the required pw slightly and gain you some headroom back. For your reference, this is kind of what the BSFC bit in that calulator link is about, although I think they are only using that for the full load calculation, since BSFC is not a fixed number but varies considerably across the speed/load area.

So I'm afraid the answer is there isn't really an easy way to calculate the required pw at idle, as it depends on lots of variables. You can have an estimate but unless you know the details of your engine then its likely to be quite innaccurate.

Hence my recommendation to select your injectors based on your peak flow requirement, and try to stay as close to that as possible. As you've correctly identified, as long as your minimum injection time is greater than that required to give stable (actually repeatable shot to shot) then you should be OK, but the more headroom you have then the better really. If you've calculated that you requre 242cc/min then 460 is really a bit on the big side, and has the potential to bring more problems than it solves.


Offline Sprocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 867
  • BHP: 29
Re: Injector sizing
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2007, 11:15:07 pm »
May I interject :)

I know the 460cc injectors are the Very good Rover (Lucas) MJY100460. Many people use these and im sure there are many on here?? that have them fitted to their Rover/TVR V8??

I know that Rover limited the max duty to around 60% on nearly all their cars. The Mini MPi uses these injectors, two of them, and the idle is very good with such big injectors, the engine putting out 63hp and the injectors capable of supplying enough for around 140hp (theoreticaly, it is not possibble with the Mini MPI set up).

These are good quick response injectors and have been tested as such, I honestly dont think you would have a problem with them at idle as long as they are well tuned for ramp up times

The spray pattern is a 'disc' three cone shape with good atomisation

Offline miniminor63

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • BHP: 1
Re: Injector sizing
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2007, 07:48:20 am »
Sprocket:

You are correct on the injectors. got them for 15 pounds:)

Cliff:

WOW! Really informative answer, and again you caught me not remembering my lectures from last semester ::) :D

I agree with you that 460 seems a wee bit big, but as they are tested to be some really good and controlable injectors (and I may go E85, needing bigger ones)I think I will try  now as ÃŒ got them.

BTW if anyone wants a set of 240 (@100 DC) ansu cleaned injectors for cheap, let me know:)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 09:04:18 am by miniminor63 »

Offline dnb

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 837
  • BHP: 19
Re: Injector sizing
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2007, 11:51:45 am »
I have silly 600cc Siemens injectors on the TVR, not the Lucas ones you speak about.  (I believe there are people using the Lucas ones to good effect, but the ones I know of are still using the 14CUX ECU!!)

Mine are definitely too big for petrol, but my ultimate aim is to run full time on E85 or ethanol since it requires less airflow for a given amount of "bang" - just what I need given the head design and flow limitations imposed by the Rover v8.

Offline cliffb75

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 167
  • BHP: 10
Re: Injector sizing
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2007, 12:48:07 pm »
If you know the ones you are after have been tested and are OK, which it seems we do, then no problems  :)


Offline miniminor63

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • BHP: 1
Re: Injector sizing
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2007, 01:10:13 pm »
I will have the ones I have bought cleaned just to be sure I think, even though they are just taken of a car that ran perfect. (may test them into a bottle first though)

« Last Edit: July 20, 2007, 07:45:46 am by miniminor63 »