Serious triggering errors

[sink]

Hi all!

So the weather is getting warmer here and I'd love to get my S2 running finally.

Before christmas I left my car unattended becauase it got very frustrateing.

I'm haveing trigger errors, mainly primary trigger error and also Vemstune shows "less secondary trigger"
The primary trigger error is blinking all the time, but the car runs, I've even cruised around in it a few times to see what's going on, but nothing

My main thought at this moment is that maybe I have the VR wires connected the wrong way, there was a topic where one bloke also had trigger errors due to that mix-up.

So, at this moment my question is - what/how should the VR sensor triggering be for VEMS? A nice question I know I mean that I'm getting a scope for next weekend to check triggering and I don't know which way should the triggering show up on the scope, should it be POSITIVE or NEGATIVE.

If I don't make sence then please tell me and I'll try to put my thoughts in writing again. I haven't used english for a long time and it's quite hard to make sense right now

When I'll get the answer I'll check all I can aswell (this, and other wireing and stuff) and when still no luck I'll upload my confugiration, make some logs and post them here

Oh yeah, almost forgot, the car is an Audi S2 with a 3B (162kW) engine. BUT I'm NOT using the distributor for ignition anymore, instead using the 1.8T coils. Although the distributor is still in use for the HALL-sensor. And I made the coil mod a long time ago when still using the Motrinic ECU and at those times I never had any errors in the ECU, unless I was to blame for them 

Oh, and the TDC is 72 degrees on my car right now only that it should be 58 degrees :S  - I thought this was worth mentioning, and yes I got this "reading" by using a strobelight with VEMS locked on 15 degrees.

Thanks for any help infront:)

[mattias]

The VR trigger edge is always rising with the current VEMS v3 hardware.

Why wait ? Posting a triggerlog and .vemslog (or .vemscfg) is not going to hurt your chances of getting help.

I'm pretty sure you've misunderstood how to use the strobe light. Lock the advance to 0 degrees, and then align the TDC marks by adjusting "TDC after the trigger", it should probably be at 58 degrees.

[sink]

So You mean that when I hook up the oschilloscope to the VR sensor then the graph-tip on the scope should be upwards? Just rechecking

What I did with the strobe light was - the car was running on idle, then I locked the ignition on 15 degrees and started to check with light if it really was 15 degrees - no it's wasn't. So I configured the values in the "TDC after the trigger" window til the light also showed 15 degrees as on what the ignition was locked on. This happened when I inputted TDC afer the trigger 72 degrees.

[mattias]

On the scope, the positive going part of the signal at the zero crossing is what should trigger the scope (just as it triggers the ECU).

I'm not sure what you're going to see with the scope, first you should post a triggerlog and a vemslog, and have peer review verify your configuration.

If you have a strobe light where you can set the advance, in order for the strobe light to delay the light the set amount of degrees, then what you did should be correct. It doesn't sound like that is what you did..
In case you had a proper degree wheel with markings, then the 15 degree marking should have aligned with the mark on the engine for this to be correct.
In essence, you are 15 degrees retarded - making for  hot exhaust gases.

[sink]

Yes, I have a strobe light where I can set the advance. This is the problem with the language barrier - can't make myself understandable I'll try to explain again. I let the car idle on locked 15 degrees advanced ignition. Then with the srobe light started looking for the 0 marking on the flywheel through the small gap in the gearbox housing. When TDC after the trigger was 72 and idle ignition still locked on 15 degrees then also the strobe light showed 15 degrees when the mark was in place.

[sink]

This is my latest config file:
paar muutust.vemscfg - 12.2 KB

and this is the latest log:
v3.3_n000620-2011.01.13-11.51.24.vemslog - 175.5 KB

Sorry for posting such links but I didn't have any other place where to put them

So, things worth mentioning - everyone who opens my config file may notice that in Primary trigger setting in the window "first trigger tooth" stands a value of 8 and "next trigger tooth" has a value of 18 - Yes I know this isn't logical but this is the only way the car will start-up and work. When I change "first trigger tooth" value from 8 to 0 the car runs, but very very badly and usually doesn't start - bangs and stuff.

If anyone would be kind enough to PLEASE look my config over and make necessary changes and/or let me know what has to be changed or what should I change, I'd be very grateful

[mattias]

With trigger tooth = 8 and "divby3", all trigger teeth are 8 degrees wide, that means 8x8 = 64 degrees offset from what everyone else are using.
Confused.. is it with trigger tooth 0 that you got 72 degrees "TDC after the trigger"?
Are you using the stock TDC mark, looking at the flywheel?

A triggerlog from cranking the engine would be a good idea.

[sink]

Yes and yes ofcourse I'm using the stock mark on the flywheel. Confused? So am I and that I've been for a long time now.

I also tried setting "TDC after the trigger" on 58 and "first trigger" tooth on 0, well that actually wasn't nice to the car It banged and kicked and also the fireing was so off that when crancking it kicked the engine in reverse  - stopping the engine. Did not try that anymore.

[mattias]

With the correct settings, make a triggerlog while cranking (WOT = flood clear, or pull the injector connectors).

If I was you I would verify exactly where cyl 1 is igniting with cranking advance = 0 degrees.
It is hard to see on these engines due to the mark being on the flywheel, I suggest making your own mark up front where there is a better chance to see what's going on.

[sink]

OK, will try to find enough time to do that tomorrow. Any tips how to make a trigger log? I haven't tried that before. Tools-Analyze/record trigger logs?

Did You check my log or config? Does anything stand out there?

[andreNL]

Vemstune -> tools -> trigger analyser
Take plugs out, fuel Pump relay out.
Disable secondary trigger and get good primery signal.
VR goes from - to + check with piece of metal aproching sensor and dvm going from - to + in mv range. Check shielded wire of sensor is connected to vems box only. If this is good check secondary sensor degrees of sensing. It resets to zero. Put leds in all connectors

[sink]

So, nothing good to report, mainly because I haven't got any time on workdays. I couldn't get a reading from a scope because the car battery was already quite dead and it couldn't power the scope on start Will try that again tomorrow with a recharged battery. Also I didn't have any more time to make a trigger log, it's also on my tomorrows to-do list.

But what I managed to check out was: I reversed the VR cables and inputted the "right" values (right values as in - like everyone else has them) meaning TDC after the trigger=58 and first trigger tooth=0 But this didn't do anything good, the ignition wasn't in the right spot at all.
If You ask why would I try such a stupid thing, then the answer is - I had to try this because I NEVER swapped the wires in the beginning cause they seemed to be swapped and as it didn't start this time I'm quite certain that they were in the right order in the first place (maybe the 3B engine loom has them already in the right order for VEMS or has a previous owner run it on another ECU before.)

So the next things on my list are: make a trigger log and start checking the sensor and wireing.

Has anyone got something else to recommend aswell?

[mattias]

Get a strobe light set up on cyl 1 coil,  since you've done this before you probably have already made a temporary adapter between coil and spark plug for the pickup.

Just changing trigger settings like that without using a strobe light first to verify is playing a game of chance.

[sink]

OK, but what value/values should I change then to get it in the right place?

[mattias]

How much, and what needs adjusting, depends on how far off cyl 1 is from igniting at the correct spot.

Ideally you keep TDC after the trigger at around 60 degrees, don't touch that unless fine tuning less than a trigger tooth width.
Rougher steps can be made with the "first trigger tooth", each tooth being 6 degrees.
If you need to adjust a lot, consider that each cylinder is offset from the previous/next by 144 degrees, and means the next option is shifting the ignition output table in the direction you need.

Those are the only variables that you might need to adjust.