COP question, possible wiring help

[BrendanC]

Project: 1989 Porsche 928 5L 32V motor with Vortech V1

I am using 8 COP units from the Porsche Cayenne Turbo and the Porsche Carerra GT, these are "smart coils" as the output is described on the webstore for VEMS, so the unit will be ordered to run these. They have four wires, and I have found the proper part numbers for the plug itself and the loom extension (pigtail wires) so it will look like an OEM installation (important in CA, its bad enough it will have a big bright metallic blue Vortech strapped to the front).

My question? Anyone have any sources for the wiring diagram on these things so I know what wire place does the 4 things that Rob has helped me identify as the inputs:

Rob was helpful privately in saying:

If they have the transistor driver built in then they'll work as the smart coil type.  Chances are that the pins will have the function +12v, gnd, control and possibly a signal for the OEM to say that the coil fired (these are used for misfire detection which is a major factor in OEM apps).
What make are they

To which I would reply - will I use all four wire or maybe only three?

This will be actually a system that will increase the ease of installation and tuning. With the "already stock included" Hall sensor on the 1-4 cam cover for cam timing, and the VR sensor for the flywheel reading the 100-1 ring on  the flywheel, and existing places for Coolant and air temp, all I need to worry about is where the MAP port should be.

Well, that and running serious water injection since the engine is close to 9.5:1 and will need more than 1 bar or so to get to 600rwhp.

Anyway, if you didn't know the COPs were for an engine made 20 years later, you'd think they were FOR this engine the way they fit into the holes.

[cliffb75]

As Rob asked, what make are they? Are these Bremi coils as used in Audi's too?

Like this?



I'm afraid you'll have to translate Karrosserimasse, but its some kind of earth - possibly back to the ECU.

[BrendanC]

Ah, thanks for your reply.

They are BERU.

[BrendanC]

I think I will expand this a bit. The COP should be sequential, since thats what its for. The Hall sensor in the right head (1-4) has a steel wheel that is about 5 inches in diameter, and is like a plate with a 90 degree wall. That wall has a cut out of about 1/6 of the circumference, and that must be the "missing tooth" for the Hall sensor. Will that work with the hall input? 

[rob@vems.co.uk]

Can't get a full translation of Karrosserimasse, but Karrosseri means Body - which I am guessing is the chassis ground.
Motormasse is Engine mass
and Zuend signal is quite litterally - Ignition Signal.

So what you need to do is to see if there is parity between pins 2 and 4.  If not then I suspect that this will use isolated grounds, one will fr the lower noise Ignition signal, and the other for the spikey noisey current generated when discharging a spark throught the plug.

Without schematics we're blind though.

Rob

[cliffb75]

Can't get a full translation of Karrosserimasse, but Karrosseri means Body - which I am guessing is the chassis ground.
Motormasse is Engine mass
and Zuend signal is quite litterally - Ignition Signal.

So what you need to do is to see if there is parity between pins 2 and 4.  If not then I suspect that this will use isolated grounds, one will fr the lower noise Ignition signal, and the other for the spikey noisey current generated when discharging a spark throught the plug.

Without schematics we're blind though.

Rob

That sounds about right. Shame that drawing is for the wrong coils then 

Should be helpful for people doing 1.8T and similar age Audi installs though 

[lugnuts]

Here is the information for the VW/Audi 1.8t coil-on-plug units:

Ignition Coils
Pin, sq.mm, Color(1.8t), Function
1 1.5 Black/Lilac    +12v to Relay J271, terminal 2/ 87
2 1.5 Brown          Ground to connection 85(with VSS) to T14a/7 (near battery) to center plenum chamber
3 .35                   Coil Triggers             
4 1.5 Brown/Yellow Ground to connection 281 to cylinder head.

I use 2.9ms dwell time, and the trigger edge is -ve. I have used these coils to over 120 whp/cylinder so far with no misfiring.
Hope this helps,

Kevin

[rob@vems.co.uk]

Thanks for that - 2.9ms dwell seems a little long for COPs I was expecting something less than that as I run Nissan ones a 1.9ms

Rob

[lugnuts]

I have heard the Nissan COP only tolerates 1.8 to 1.9 ms, and that they are not too great of a coil.
The 2.9ms I run on the VAG units was determined by someone else as I did not have a current clamp yet.
As for real-world experience I can attest to several cars driving daily on this setting with no issues.

The coils when driving normally seem to work well at almost any dwell time, for example they will idle at under 1ms dwell, from memory down to .5ms or so caused an audible difference.

[rob@vems.co.uk]

You want to run the smallest possible dwell to avoid coil overheating.  Jorgen tells me that its not uncommon for chipped VAG's to have their COPs fail on track because the chip tuners push the coil dwell times up to get a good spark, and the prolonged high revs cause overheating.  It might be okay for drag racing though.

Rob

[lugnuts]

Agreed. I do not know what the chipped setups run for dwell, but they do fail and mine do not. Also there were several revisions of these coils as the earlier models were very unreliable.

[BrendanC]

These Beru coils from the Porsche are supporting 500 and 600hp, so I am hoping they will survive some solid power in my engine. I still haven't found a good diagram for the BERUS though.

[rob@vems.co.uk]

Have you tried drawing up a table of pin to pin resistance readings?

[Jorgen]

The motormasse pin is also marked 4a, 4a is the common designation in german cars for the coils secondary ground and is found on most of their modern COPs. This should be grounded in the same chunk of metal as the spark plugs.

Other useful Bosch signal numbers are '15' which means that the wire carries 12v when the ignition is on AND when the starter motor is running. There is also '1' which is found on passive coils, that is the 'points' signal that goes to one of the VEMS ignition powerstages.

The last ground mentioned on the drawing in this thread is the ground for the active coils internal powerstage. It should be grounded in the same section of the car as the ECU. As an example, if the ECU is grounded in the engine this ground wire should be on the engine as well. If the ECU is grounded in the chassis this ground wire should go to the chassi as well.

Jörgen

[BrendanC]

I was faxed the wiring diagrams for these Cayenne Turbo Coils, which have four wires going to them. Is there a way I can post a PDF here?