Engine wont start, sparking correct and injection occuring..

[zolar]

Hi All - thanks for such an awesome product, I bought my VEMS a year ago, when I had my gearbox out and thought it might be a good time to tidy up the loom, turned into a bigger project and I have only started making the headway a couple of months ago 

I've got a 1JZGTE engine, I found Fero's supra config and managed to base bits and pieces off that to make up my config, base maps, etc.

I've used the stock Crank (12 tooth) and Cam sensor (1 tooth - middle sensor is used),
Unfortunatly, I cant get it to start, it splutters like its wanting to start, when i give it some engine start.
Injectors are working, I've had an LED on them - appears to be good pulses.. fuel pump is running.

I've set the ignition timing correctly off #1 cyl, which is what everyone I've talked to has told me to set timing from.
However I have read the 1jzgte/ge guide (http://www.vems.co.uk/VEMSSchematics/1+2JZLoomGuide07May2008.pdf) which on the third page in, states 'angular width of tooth: 102' which doesnt agree with what the Vemstune help and defaults for this engine suggests (30 deg) for a 12(24)+1.
The same document also states

Connect your Timing light on coil 2 and make sure that the plug is earthed. Crank the engine and check that the timing mark is correct. If you cannot see the timing mark you may be connected to the wrong coilpack, so it’s worth trying the timing light on the other coilpacks to find the coil pack firing orders.

Taking the timing from Coil/cyl #2 goes against what I've been told, shouldnt the engine only fire on one cylinder at the ignition marks?, this might be right, but everyone I've talked to says cyl1 is what you set the timing from. 

I'm getting a good RPM signal, 250rpm (sparkplugs in), and battery voltage is a good 12.1v when cranking


I've also got quite a different value for the TDC after the trigger: 9
and First trigger tooth: 0
yet this gets me right on the 0 deg timing mark with the timing light..
Injector one is connected to inj1/cyl1, 2 to 2, etc.
Igniter/Coil 1 is connected to coil1/cyl1, 2 to 2, etc.


I'm Running firmware 1.1.87.

Config file available here, I'll upload it elsewhere if this doesnt work.. the config is v1.1.85

http://rapidshare.com/files/444622196/v3.3_n002286-A-2011.01.26-23.05.42.vemscfg

Could somebody please cast their eyes over it for me, I'm sure this is something very obvious I've missed/misunderstood...

[rob@vems.co.uk]

TDC after the trigger needs to be greater than 9 as this is the most advance you'll ever see - commonly you're after 90 to 60 deg.

You need to bear in mind that the stock Toyota sensors are much higher impedence than any of the sensors we've ever seen before, this means that they appear to be hugely susceptable to noise, we tried all manner of different approaches to this and have come up with a sure fire solution - use the Honeywell GT101 hall sensor and conver the VEMS to Hall/Hall configuration http://shop.vems.hu/catalog/hall-sensor-p-107.html this will ensure that you get no noise, and the sensors are very close to the same size as the Toyota's sensors - you will need a spacing plate though which we're currently doing for a 2JZ.

I'd get the triggers sorted before trying to go any further, lots of ECUs have these triggering issues with Toyotas, VEMS will not put up with a single trigger error and will just stop sparking and injecting rather than to continue with the last best guess settings.

[zolar]

Thanks for that Rob,

I'll look into changing the triggers, but will probably wait until the adaptors have been made for this..

In the interim can you confirm that I'm correct in setting the timing off the No1 cylinder?
Unlike that of the 1/2jz manual/walkthrough..?
Could you or someone also tell me if I've set the injector outputs correctly, i followed your manual but got a bit stuck with some of the settings mentioned in the megatune, that're now different in vemstune..

[rob@vems.co.uk]

These adaptors are just being fabricated in a garage by the guy fitting it, I'm not sure that they'll be for sale.  They're simple enough to make, a 4mm piece of ally with four holes for the cam sensor (one central for the body of the sensor, two for the bolt holes to mount the adaptor onto the cam cover, and one threaded hole to bolt the sensor to)
IIRC the timing details are for a cut tooth trigger, running 12+1 as you are depends on what phase the engine is at when the cam sync occurs.
The injector settings, and the rest are irrelivent until the triggering is sorted out.  Many JZ owners ended up putting a 36-1 on their engines, the Hall sensors are the only way to get a reliable trigger setup - an unreliable trigger setup is a direct route to a blown engine.

[GintsK]

Why then Toyota use those sensors with no reliability issues?
Does both sensors are problematic with VEMS?

[rob@vems.co.uk]

Because the Toyota ECU is designed to work specifically with these triggers, when we were trying to use stock Toyota sensors for the 4A-GE and 3S-GTE sensors I couldnt believe how strong the signals were at low RPM, I also couldnt believe how strong the noise was either, the 4A-GE wasn't even using sheilded wire!  IrishTwinCam started looking at the stock ECU with a hardware expert at his work place they discovered that the amount of filtering in place
Part of the problem is that Bosch own the Patents on the majority of the trigger types that work easily, and it looks like the Japanese idea is more about making the electronics work with the hardware they have rather than making the triggering hardware simple.

The 12 tooth trigger is effected badly for two reasons - the first is that theres too much 'dead' time between the teeth, this means that the sensor is not being stimulated for a significant amount of time and that means spurious noise can "get in".  The second is that the sensor is very sensitive, so not only does the trigger permit noise the trigger guarentees it.

[GintsK]

I had zero problems with 4A-GE (old RWD corolla) signal noise using VEMS. Except signal pulses was not evenly due to mechanics. This is why I do not recommend using dizzy mounted sensors.
I used common Audi trigger method for 1-pulse signal.

[rob@vems.co.uk]

those uneven spacings weren't noise then?

[GintsK]

with noise I understand unwanted signals from electric noise. Those makes trigger errors and so on.
But in my case it seems signal count was right. But mechanical transmission plus may be trigger itself cause uneven time spacings. With crank wheel rpm signal usually is clean, here it was little with zigzag.

[rob@vems.co.uk]

My findings were different - here's all the documentation that I made at the time:
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=VehicleFitment%2FToyota
We did more studies after this and in the end noise was the diagnosis.  We eventually got an even RPM when cranking but when ignition was added the trigger self-stimulated and the trigger errors were horrible.
The point is this - occasionally a setup will work with very few problems and it will run fine and everyone is happy.
But there is a significant chance that trigger noise will blight the installation.  The people with 2JZ that had problems with trigger noise replaced the VEMS with another aftermarket ECU, and found that there were horrible mis-fire issues due to trigger noise.

I'll post the pics of the converter plates that have been drilled for the Hall conversion.  3 holes on a bit of 5mm aluminium...

[zolar]

Back again, have since made and fitted the adaptors and new sensors, carried out the changes to the board to convert from VR input, checked the voltages to ensure all was working well, ran up engine.. more or less still getting the same result as before.

I'm still getting trigger errors, and assuming thats stopping the injection from occuring.
I've tried moving the edges to falling, leading, etc but still no luck.
All the trigger logs and my config are located at http://www.webster-group.co.nz/robert/
the filename will explain the different falling, rising edge's..

Is it just that cam sync is occuring at the same time as the crank signal?

Anyone have any ideas? Thanks

[rob@vems.co.uk]

Okay lets eliminate one trigger at a time.
Disconnect and disable the secondary trigger, pull your plugs out and spin the engine over - make sure that your battery is well charged too, a drop in voltage feed to the ecu can cause issues.
You should get a clean RPM signal, if you get any trigger errors here then we have a problem.

[zolar]

cool, I removed plugs and turned the engine over as it was, started coming up with errors straight away..
260+ RPM
Sec Trig Pos Bad..

Disconnected sec trigger, plugs still out and turned over.
260+ RPM
no trigger errors.


Battery is def good, cranking off two fully charged batteries all the time, always on charge..

 

[rob@vems.co.uk]

Okay, thats sort of good as we know the primary trigger appears okay.
I'm not upto scratch on the secondary trigger settings, could you post what you have, here and maybe some others could pick over them?
Are you using the middle or end cam sensor?

[mattias]

It seems the secondary trigger is always racing with a primary trigger tooth. I didn't see you try falling (pri), rising (sec) ?